Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2006 October 19

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October 19

French language: Suisse vs Suissesse

On Switzerland's talk page questions were raised as to whether the word "la Suissesse" (female Swiss person) was correct or good French, as in accepted by the Académie Française. I know I never learned this word at school back in the 1980s, and I know a lot of people who use it now, so I wonder how new its usage is. Assuming the word was created to disambiguate from the male form (it could also be intended to disambiguate from the country 'la Suisse'), are there similar female neologisms for "la Belge" (female Belgian) or "l'Espagnole" (female Spanish person, in which case nothing, not even the article, marks the gender in spoken language)? According to French Wictionary, "Suissesse" is the only example in French where the name of a citizen and the name of the adjective referring to that country aren't identical, but I'm curious as to whether this is true. Thank you for your thoughts. ---Sluzzelin 01:49, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

I wouldn't purport to have a good enough 'sense' of French to give a definite answer, but what seems clear is that "Suissesse" is the only one that has any offical sanction as of the adopted rules. Note that it only applies to the proper noun. ("Une Suissesse est là" but not "Une femme suissesse est là") Personally I'd definitely not try to extend the convention - you'd run a high risk of being percieved as sexist. I'd probably even avoid it for Swiss, and just say "femme suisse" instead. I know cases in other languages where the feminine form is perfectly acceptable for certain nationalities while just as unacceptable for others and I'm not sure French is any different. Why do you think it's a neologism, btw? Seems more likely to me it's an archaic holdover than a neologism. --BluePlatypus 06:23, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your reply, BluePlatypus. The only reason I thought it might be a neologism is the fact that, as stated above, I wasn't taught "Suissesse" when learning French at a Swiss school with Swiss teachers (of both genders). I hopefully would have remembered this otherwise. We learned "une Suisse" for a female Swiss person and "une chose suisse" for a Swiss thing, noun or adjective alike, and the former is still correct without adding 'femme', but meanwhile I have heard "Suissesse" used more frequently. Of course this very anecdotal and could mean absolutely nothing in terms of when "Suissesse" became standard usage. In German, by the way, language can be perceived as sexist when using the masculine form to imply both male and female (e.g. "Liebe Wikipedianer" instead of "Liebe Wikipedianer und Wikipedianerinnen". One Swiss newspaper has been using a contraction with capitalized suffix ("Liebe WikipedianerInnen") for mixed gender collectives, but it hasn't really caught on. Anyway, thanks a lot for the helpful link!---Sluzzelin 07:13, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Here's what the Trésor de la langue française says:

REM. Suissesse, subst. fém. Femme suisse. Les filles n'y portent plus [dans l'Ain] le corset lacé par devant, le tablier de soie et le cotillon court qui les faisaient ressembler à des Suissesses (A. FRANCE, Vie littér., 1891, p. 156). Le féminin de Suisse est Suissesse, lorsque le mot est nom propre: un Suisse, une Suissesse (...) ce féminin tend à être remplacé par une Suisse (DUPRÉ 1972).

So "une Suissesse" is the older former but "une Suisse" has become more common in recent years. Lesgles (talk) 21:17, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Thank you very much, Lesgles! That's very helpful, and it's the opposite of what I expected.---Sluzzelin 21:54, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

But it is what I expected. ;) --BluePlatypus 18:56, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Happy to see that our Treasury is in use here. Any article ? To-do list ? -- DLL ^{.. T} 19:08, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

"Erkamkana" translation

There is a song by Michael Card, "El Shaddai," which contains the word "erkamkana." We have been searching for both a translation of this word into English, and the actual spelling in the Hebrew alphabet, if this is indeed a real Hebrew word. Google yielded no verifiable results, and my husband has been searching his Hebrew dictionary and Bible with no luck.--Shuttlebug 05:15, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Turns out there's a El_Shaddai (song) page here, which explains that lyric. :) --BluePlatypus 06:00, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

I love you :) --Shantavira 08:37, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

"Erkamka" is a semi-garbling of Hebrew ארחמך (Pi`el binyan with pronominal suffix), which would not usually be transcribed "Erkamka"! Something like Araħemka would be a better start at a transcription (further scholarly diacritics could be added to taste). It could also mean "I have compassion on you" (you = masculine singular). AnonMoos 10:03, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

P.S. The Triconsonantal root is רחמ R-H-M... AnonMoos 10:07, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

P.P.S. An apparent Qal Binyan form Erħamka (spelled with the same consonant letters ארחמך) does occur in Psalms 18:2 in the Hebrew Bible (Psalms 18:1 in the verse numbering of most English-language translations), but this is a rather problematic form (the Qal binyan of triconsonantal root רחמ is otherwise unattested), and emendations for it have been proposed, so that it's a slightly odd form to pick up on for use in an English song... AnonMoos 10:38, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! I was looking for something a little more in depth than I was finding on the internet (including the Wikipedia entry), and this does the trick.--Shuttlebug 19:09, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

guaranty

would you please explain me what is the difference between guaranty and warranty?

The words "guaranty", "guarantee", "warranty" (and to a certain extent "warrant") are largely synonymous, although in specialized legal contexts each may have more specialized meanings. You could look at our articles Guaranty – which redirects to Surety, Guarantee – which redirects to Warranty, and Warrant. There are also Wiktionary entries guaranty, guarantee, warranty, and warrant. For a more comprehensive coverage of the ranges of meanings see dictionary.reference.com: guaranty, guarantee, warranty, and warrant. Historically "guaranty" and "warranty" are of course the same word, just like "garderobe" and "wardrobe".  --Lambiam^Talk 09:45, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

"Guarantee" is also used in a non-contract context: "I guarantee that Republicans will lose the upcoming US elections." That wouldn't work with "warrantee". StuRat 15:29, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

You could use warrant. Sounds old-fashioned, though. -THB 16:04, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, that use of the word would be unwarranted. :-) StuRat 13:41, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

"rust" in Spanish?

I noticed today that a household cleaner I have translates "rust" into Spanish as "Oxido", which I found strange because the connection between oxygen and rust hasn't been known for more than a couple hundred years. AltaVista translates "rust" as "moho", but according to es:Moho, this seems to mean "mold" (though I can't really read Spanish). es:Oxido links back to Oxide, and there is no Spanish language link on Rust. So what exactly is the Spanish word for rust? --Allen 10:52, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

You can also say "herrumbre" (which comes from hierro) and "orín" (this one's less used)--RiseRover|^talk 11:16, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

I read your question three times before I realized that the "household cleaner" was not a person. I'm not familiar with the etymology of Spanish but it could be a poor definition. My dictionary says óxido as well and this could be correct but awkward. The makers of the cleaners could have used non-native translators. It's also possible that the Spanish language had used a different word but then switched it more recently, coincidentally after the connection was made between oxygen and oxidation. Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 21:04, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Oh, man, it really does sound like I'm talking about a person there; I didn't realize that at all. It was actually a can of Bar Keeper's Friend. Thanks both of you for the responses! --Allen 23:13, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Weird, I never thought you could be talking about a person. --RiseRover|^talk 11:19, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

It's óxido. Something that's rusty can be oxidado or enrubinado. I don't see why that seems so odd. Lexicon changes.mnewmanqc 13:46, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

I've never heard "enrubinado." Where are you from (or where did you hear it)?--RiseRover|^talk 14:56, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Would that have meant "reddened", originally? 惑乱 分からん 15:49, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

I am sure it is from reddened/yellowed (cf: rubio). I got it from my boyfriend, who's a native speaker of Spanish from Barcelona, but I never heard it there myself. I am not a native speaker.mnewmanqc 22:56, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

What is the format of the questions asked in the National Vocabulary Competition?

See title. I'd appreciate any help I could get answering this question. Thanks, anon.

See study tools on the NVC website. Apparently the competition involves "word play" so I would expect the format to vary widely. It's not your average spelling bee. -THB 22:58, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Chlorophyll

Is the word chlorophyll a count noun or is it a noncount noun?

I ask because I stumbled upon the article on chlorophyll, and find the supposed plural form "chlorophylls" to sound rather oddly, and have found nothing to confirm my suspicions by googling the subject.

FrostyBytes 20:57, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

While waiting for someone with more technical knowledge on the subject to come around, I will hazard a guess. It seems to me that chlorophyll is a count noun when referring to the pigment in general: chlorophyll allows plants to carry out photosynthesis, whereas "chlorophylls" could be used to refer to the individual molecules and the forms they take: chorophylls a and b. In this way, it is perhaps similar to the word fish.

Since you're asking a question about language, I will permit myself to make one correction: "sound rather odd" instead of "sound rather oddly". After words like "sound", "feel", "smell", English uses the adjective rather than the adverb. Lesgles (talk) 21:31, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Chlorophyll is a non-count noun. When the article says "chlorophylls", it really means "types of chlorophyll" One says "How much clorophyll is in the leaf?", not "How many chlorophylls are in the leaf". -THB 21:49, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Same as "cheeses" to mean "varieties of cheese"... AnonMoos 23:04, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

'== Language of Accra ==

What is the language of Accra?

The native language in that region is Ga-Adangbe, but the official language of Ghana is English, and because Accra is the capital and very Italic textnear to a seaport, you will find people speaking many tribal and global languages. -THB 22:51, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

second and foreign language

Well, people spoke Ga-Adangbe there long before they spoke English, so I guess you could say English is the second and foreign language. -THB 23:45, 19 October 2006 (UTC)