Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of calypso-like genres

List of calypso-like genres edit

This might seem like an inappropriate list for several obvious reasons. But give it a chance. It doesn't mean "list of any genre that is similar to calypso music in some way". It's specifically referring to a number of genres that stem from the same root and share numerous characteristics with each other, in varying degrees. In virtually any source that describes these musics, they are introduced as a "calypso cousin", "an Xish form of calypso", etc. Occasionally, they are compared to mento as well, but not usually. I'm certain this is the most complete such source on the 'net, and I haven't found anything comparable in a print source either - not because there's any original research, but because each source only compares one or two genres to calypso, not all of them.

I don't entirely like the title, but I haven't come up with anything better. I thought about doing something using the term "calypso song complex", except that I haven't seen the word "complex" used here and I thought that might imply a more known historical relationship than there actually is. All of these genres can be traced back to a similar mixture of peoples in a single region at about the same time. Whether or not they derive from calypso, calypso derives from them, they all derive from a common ancestor in the Caribbean, or they each independently evolved from common ancestors outside of the Caribbean - it's probably just not possible to know which of these things is more true, due to a lack of historical records, and they're all almost certainly true to one degree or another. In any case, such a discussion is probably not needed here (some would want it at calypso music, but that's just because it's so famous; Caribbean music would probably be better).

Thanks, Tuf-Kat 18:26, 2 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Support. Unconventional, but I like it. One question though—is there a rhyme or reason to whether or not each particular instance of the word "calypso" is italicized? --Spangineer^es (háblame) 04:46, 3 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks! I've just made it more consistent, but "calypso" is italicized when it's used as a word. (e.g. "Cariso may be the root of the word calypso" versus "I hate calypso but I love cariso")) This is the use-mention distinction. Tuf-Kat 21:58, 3 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Neat stuff. May suggest "List of genres related to calypso" as an alternative name? I have to confess that "calypso-like" is probably not the best-sounding title I've come across here... -- Rune Welsh | ταλκ 09:06, 4 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- I considered variants like that, but "related to calypso" implies more than is maybe warranted. Given a lack of historical data, the best that can be said is that they come from the same peoples in the same area in the same timeframe. Plus, I don't want to imply any more than necessary that calypso is somehow more important than the others - it's just as likely that mento came first and is the root of the rest (and just as unprovable, AFAIK). Calypso's just more famous than the rest by far. Plus lots of genres are "related to calypso", whereas "calypso-like" implies a certain level of superficial resemblance that would make soca music not apply. (and I don't want a long list of everything from soca to calypso jazz) I guess the normal solution when no good title is apparent is to go with something simple, unambiguous and descriptive - list of genres that were developed in similar conditions and have evolved along analogous paths to calypso... which actually doesn't seem as absurd as it did in my mind. Tuf-Kat 02:24, 5 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
~~Conditional~~ support I like it, but...
- The intro gives too much weight to DeLeon's hypothesis about the French origin of kaiso. Most of what I've read suggests that he entirely overplayed that angle (e.g., Hollis Liverpool)
- Presumably you left out things like soca and rapso as direct derivatives of kaiso, but what about chutney music and possibly reggaeton? Guettarda 12:55, 4 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  - Regarding French origins: your probably right, though it was only a couple words. I removed it completely as not really relevant here, and almost certainly very untrue... Maybe original researchy of me, but it seems a bit absurd, but then I haven't read the book, so maybe he doesn't state his case quite so strongly. In any case, this list isn't a good place to discuss calypso's origins, so I removed that rather controversial claim. Tuf-Kat
  - Correct about soca and rapso. Chutney I thought about including because I can see some parallels, but I didn't for two reasons: 1) these other genres share an important characteristic in their Afro-Caribbean origins, while chutney had another major influence (Indo-Caribbean) - to be sure, there's enough of a muddle that no doubt a case could be made for chutney being strongly influenced by calypso, but that's different than stemming from the same origins; 2) I didn't find any sources that actually compare chutney to calypso in this way (I guess that's kind of the kicker). If you know of one that does, let me know exactly what it says and I'll add it (or add it yourself). BTW, I hadn't realized what terrible shape chutney music was in... Tuf-Kat
  - On reggaeton, again, there's a definite influence, but reggaeton can't be considered in any sense parallel to calypso or mento or any of the others. I've also seen hip hop compared to calypso - never by a reputable source, but there are similarities. Still, both these are separated by a very long period of time from calypso et al, and are a clearly different category from the others on the list. Note that again, I don't have a source comparing reggaeton to calypso (admittedly, I haven't looked besides some casual googling just now) either. Tuf-Kat 02:24, 5 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
~~Oppose~~. A couple of nitpicks on otherwise neat list: 1) The first sentence does not follow Wikipedia guidelines and does not tell what this article/list is about. 2) The definition of calypso is missing. 3) The definition of calypso-like is missing. 4) Lead could use more citations. 5) The last ' after genre name is bolded while the first one is not. 6) Say, the definition of "Careso" is not complete and not specific enough. Intereting list otherwise. Renata 00:52, 12 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- I've tweaked the lead in line with your suggestions. I don't want to give a definition of "calypso-like" because there really isn't one, AFAIK, but I think the first sentence now makes it pretty clear what this list is listing. Defining calypso is definitely inappropriate here (defining any music genre is essentially impossible without a whole lot of verbiage, and that would be better covered at calypso music).
- I'm not sure I understand point 5, but I don't like the way it's currently formatted. I removed the ' entirely, and moved some of the words back to italicized - foreign words are italicized, which is somewhat nebulous here because there are Creoles (including English) and whatnot to consider, but I think this is reasonable. I would italicize them all but it would be weird to consider calypso foreign enough to be italicized, and inconsistent not to.
- I'll see if I can find anything else citable in the lead, but I'm not sure what still needs citing. Essentially the entire second paragraph is cited to a source, and the first paragraph doesn't seem like it needs it to me. Those things are well-documented in the sources cited in the list itself, I think.
- I agree on the careso thing, and have moved both that and caliso out of the list entirely. I've made a paragraph at the end that covers those two and mentions some other genres that are compared to calypso from time to time or share a historical relationship with it, just to make sure readers understand why there weren't included. Caliso and Careso are, I think, more generic words for "topical song" than a distinct calypso-like genre (Virgin Islanders and Lucians correct me if I'm wrong), and are primarily relevant as a linguistic relative of the word calypso. Tuf-Kat 02:05, 12 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  - Okay, I think I've addressed your objections as best I can. Tuf-Kat 01:49, 15 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    - I think you addressed pretty much everything. But I noticed one more bad thing: when citing websites you omit some crucial parts like authors and dates. For example, this link has both author and date that are missing in reference section here. It's take like 2 mmins to fix and you got my support. Renata 02:48, 15 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      - Okay, fixed. Tuf-Kat 04:13, 15 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Support per fixes. Renata 05:05, 15 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]