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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/The Lord of the Rings (1978 film)

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article review. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted 19:42, 20 January 2007.

The Lord of the Rings (1978 film) edit

Self-nomination. I helped make this article what it is today. Back in August, there wasn't a whole lot in the article, and the article contained some very inaccurate facts about the movie. I would love to see the article for this classic animated movie get the featured article treatment. I feel that it definitely deserves it. (Ibaranoff24 08:39, 22 December 2006 (UTC))[reply]

  • Nominate and Support. (Ibaranoff24 08:39, 22 December 2006 (UTC))[reply]
  • Comment - This is a welcome surprise. Glancing at the article I do feel some things that may lead to my objection. The Plot looks long with three images, would it not be better to bump up the cast section and divert minor information into it. The comparison with the book could also be spun off into a new section. The production section also looks like there are too many quotes. Wiki-newbie 10:20, 22 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • The comparison part was originally in its own section. Making it a part of the plot section was Cbrown1023's idea (who also added the cast section). I moved the cast section -- is the current placement fine, or should I move it somewhere else? (Ibaranoff24 12:17, 22 December 2006 (UTC))[reply]
  • Comment I agree that the plot is quite long and should be trimmed. Also my peer review concern remains, can "Differences from the book" get some footnotes so the section doesn't look like original research? It too could also be trimmed. - Tutmosis 16:27, 22 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I feel comparison with the book should always be seperate, and the cast section should supplement the plot. Wiki-newbie 16:42, 22 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Object (my objection still remains) on the lead alone. First off, it's only five sentences, separated into four stubby paragraphs. It needs to be expanded. I also found some writing problems in there as well:
  • First paragraph: "J.R.R. Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings is the title of an animated fantasy film produced and directed by Ralph Bakshi, and released to theaters in 1978. It is an adaptation of the first half of J. R. R. Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings."
  • Saying that "LOTR is the title of a film" is redundant. Just say "LOTR is a film..."
  • Unless there was a significant delay between production of the film and its release, it's easier to just say "LOTR is a 1978 film" rather than that little add-on at the end.
  • The next paragraph supposedly describes the plot, but there's not enough detail. Who does the Fellowship consist of? What's the One Ring? Why is it so important to this "Sauron" guy?
  • The third paragraph can probably just go. The "ambitious" adjective sounds POV, even if it was cited. There's no need to mention the producers and distributors in the lead: they're in the infobox and hopefully talked about in the Production section.
  • Fourth could be expanded. Give a quick summary of why critics were mixed, what is meant by "sparked new interest in Tolkien's writing", and why a sequel was unproduced ("to this day" is unreliable, should be changed into a specific month and year). Also, you could mention that the film diverges from the book in several ways, and how those changes were reacted to.

Also, as others mentioned, the plot synopsis could be reduced.--Dark Kubrick 18:40, 22 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Better, but paragraphs are supposed to contain something like 3-6 sentences each, not 1, and there should probably be at the most three paragraphs for this article's lead. Please organize the information into tight, coherent paragraphs.--Dark Kubrick 00:59, 23 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Still feels somewhat skeletal, but I guess it's okay.--Dark Kubrick 01:57, 23 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Looking further down, the synopsis section sounds like a trailer for the film, not an encyclopedia entry. Sentences like "Long ago, in the early years of the Second Age of Middle-earth, the great Elven-smiths forged Rings of Power — Nine for mortal Men, Seven for the Dwarf-lords, and three for the tall Elf-kings" don't have the formal tone required.--Dark Kubrick 01:06, 23 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, that sentence is taken care of, but what about the rest of the synopsis? I still see fanboyish sentences there.--Dark Kubrick 01:57, 23 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • All taken care of. Take a look at it now. (Ibaranoff24 18:05, 23 December 2006 (UTC))[reply]
Better. But I suggest you find a person or two to copyedit the text of the entire article, as I'm picking sentences at random that don't sound too good. Some examples:
    • They leave Lórien by river, but Frodo realizes the Ring is having a malevolent effect on Boromir, who eventually tries to take the Ring from Frodo, who puts it on to escape him. Sentence runs on for too long.
    • Following the live-action shoot, each frame of the live footage was then broken down into individual frames, and then printed out, and placed behind animation cels. Only one "and" is necessary, plus there are some other unnecessary words.
    • She showed him the room where her father, who died in 1973, did his writing and drawing (over the years, Tolkien made sketches and paintings based on his writings - including Bilbo Baggins facing the dragon Smaug in The Hobbit). Tolkien's death date and the mention of the drawing of Bilbo and Smaug (this is about LOTR, not The Hobbit) feels out of place and just thrown in there.
      • The original sentence, that I wrote, did not mention the date of death or the Hobbit drawings - those were added by another user. I removed them. Ibaranoff24 19:06, 23 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I appreciate your efforts to address my concerns so far, but more work has to be done. Good luck!--Dark Kubrick 18:33, 23 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not quite sure what you mean by that. I pointed out examples in the text to show that, if problems like these can be found at random, then the whole article requires careful scrutiny to correct any more possible mistakes.--Dark Kubrick 20:41, 23 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • I think the recent glut of edits per Dark Kubrick's suggestions show the article is less than stable. Oppose. Wiki-newbie 21:20, 23 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • The article is fine. The few minor problems that were there have been taken care of. (Ibaranoff24 21:24, 23 December 2006 (UTC))[reply]

Those weren't the only problems. I still spot more, but I'm not going to list all of the problems here on this page. It's your job to find them and weed them out, and get the help of other users if necessary. Note that I haven't struck all my objections out; some still remain and need to be addressed, such as the long plot synopsis and writing.--Dark Kubrick 21:51, 23 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

    • I don't think that there's anything wrong with the length of the synopsis. (Ibaranoff24 21:56, 23 December 2006 (UTC))[reply]
Then at the very least get rid of all those stubby paragraphs in there.--Dark Kubrick 23:34, 23 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - In the third paragraph of the article, it is noted that the film "...was a box office success... The film was deemed to be a flop by the original distributors..." In the "Reception" section, this same claim is made: "the film was a success, grossing $30,471,420 at the box office (the budget was $8 million), but United Artists, who believed the film to be a flop..." If the film was a success, why would the distributor "deem" or "believe" it to be a flop? Wouldn't United Artists have been in the best position to determine whether the film turned a profit or not? If the writer of this wikipedia article simply looked at the box office gross in comparison to the film's budget, and determined that it was a success based on that, that would be considered original research. And its also a possibly erroneous assumption. How much of that $30,000,000 was returned to the studio? Approximately half? Any of the issues detailing "all time rental champs" Variety used to publish prior to 1993 will have that information; any/all movies that ever made $4 million and more were included in these lists. With the costs of making prints and advertising factored in, with $30,000,000 in ticket sales the film may very well have been a financial failure. Either way, hit or flop, the sections noted are confusingly written and poorly sourced.-Hal Raglan 02:59, 24 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • I just now noted that IMDB indicates the film made $13.5 million in "rentals" (i.e., the percentage from ticket sales returned to the distributor by movie theaters). With the cost of making prints and advertising added on top of the $8 million budget, the film might have been an unprofitable venture for United Artists.-Hal Raglan 03:11, 24 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • This is POV and irrelevant. The film grossed more than twice its budget. Thus, it was a success. Minus advertising and distribution costs, the film made at least $29 million in the U.S. alone, not to mention the fact that it grossed more overseas (though I couldn't find out exactly how much). (Ibaranoff24 05:54, 24 December 2006 (UTC))[reply]
        • So are you saying there are no sources determining the film was a success other than your own opinion? Talk about POV! And if discussing a film's success or failure is irrelevant, why is it even in the article in the first place? You say "minus advertising and distribution costs, the film made at least $29 million in the U.S. alone". Er, you forgot to ALSO subtract the $15.5 million that was retained by the theatres. The article claims (in two different sections) that the film was a "success", but United Artists mysteriously deemed/believed it a flop. As written, this makes absolutely no sense, and needs to be either better sourced, rewritten, or excised. I have to voice my Objection to an article becoming Featured if such a major point is presented so incoherently.-Hal Raglan 17:11, 24 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
          • I don't think you know what you're talking about. (Ibaranoff24 01:15, 25 December 2006 (UTC))[reply]
            • I don't understand your antagonistic tone. All of us here are simply making attempts/suggestions to improve a flawed article. I highly recommend that, in the future, if you have problems understanding another editor's comments, you ask for clarification instead of hurling insults. -Hal Raglan 01:34, 25 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    "So are you saying there are no sources determining the film was a success other than your own opinion?"
    Your quote, not mine. (Ibaranoff24 01:39, 25 December 2006 (UTC))[reply]
    Indeed. But I haven't made my opinion part of an encyclopedia article. You have. Now answer my question: Do you have any sources -- other than your own opinion -- that indicates the film was a success? If so, provide them in the article. If no sources exist, accept the fact that the film was not a financial success, as the studio maintains, and rewrite the sections of the article as needed.-Hal Raglan 04:10, 25 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Taken care of. Take a look at the current revision. (Ibaranoff24 04:56, 25 December 2006 (UTC))[reply]
    • Thank you! Both sections read much better now. Merry Christmas!-Hal Raglan 17:18, 25 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reject - article has too many red links, especially in the cast section. Reduction in red link would convince me to support. Anthonycfc [T • C] 01:37, 7 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Support -- my concerns, as raised above, about the articles amount of red links have been largely taken care of. Anthonycfc [T • C] 12:04, 8 January 2007 (UTC) Re-reject as per comment lower down page. Anthonycfc [T • C] 20:37, 12 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Taken care of. Take a look at the current revision and reevaluate the article. (Ibaranoff24 09:43, 8 January 2007 (UTC))[reply]

Comment: While the red links are gone, the blue links now there are just as useless. Most of them just link directly back to this article! These actors need to have articles created for them, not just a circular link made to make them look pretty.--Dark Kubrick 13:09, 8 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

    • I didn't have much information on the actors. If anyone wants to create articles on these actors, be my guest. I think what's currently there is fine for now. (Ibaranoff24 01:41, 9 January 2007 (UTC))[reply]

What exactly is currently there? I'm not saying that there have to be huge, 30KB worth of text about these actors, but if you're going to properly fix the red links, then they have to have stubs that list the most basic information. The blue links now are almost worse than the red links, since they're completely useless and deceptive.--Dark Kubrick 05:09, 9 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Created stubs for the actors. (Ibaranoff24 10:31, 9 January 2007 (UTC))[reply]
  • Reject - paragraphing of the Differences from the Book section is poor, and reads as if bullet points rather than flowing paragraphs. Also, my concerns in the article's peer review about red links have not actually been taken care of - Ibaranoff24 simply created a redirect back to the article (diff) which rather than fixing the article's red links simply prettifies it in terms of changing red links to blue. The article has clearly come a long way, but it still has a few more miles to go to FA status in my opinion. Regards, Anthonycfc [T • C] 21:18, 9 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - are there any other sources for the business data and trivia, other than imdb? IMDb should be used very cautiously as a reference - other than Writers Guild of America credits, its content is essentially fan-submitted with an undisclosed degree of verification or sources. Gimmetrow 18:46, 11 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Article is well put together, well written, and well researched. Reads like a featured article.Ganfon 23:37, 12 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - although the article reads a little untidily - for example, the third image from top in the article is left-aligned, resulting in the squashing of the next heading - and this needs to be addressed. Also, the references section is incorrectly titled "Notes" rather than "References" or "Sources"; see WP:CITE's section, WP:CITE#References Section. Otherwise, a job well done; regards, Anthonycfc [T • C] 20:32, 19 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I still see major problems. My biggest concerns are the "Pre-production" and "Production" sections. They rely way too heavily on quotes to tell the story, rather than summarizing important information and using the quotes sparingly. Plus, while the style of references is the editor's preference, it has to be consistent throughout. For examples:
    • Most list the author's first name first, but refs #12 and #17 list last name first.
    • Half the references say "Last accessed..." and list the date then year in letters; the other half say "Retrieved on..." and list year then date, in number format.
    • What type of source is ref #17? A book?
      • Read it again Fixed. (Ibaranoff24 04:05, 20 January 2007 (UTC))[reply]
        • I know it's a letter, but what's the thing that it comes from: "J.R.R. Tolkien Collection"? If it's a book it should be italicized, unless I'm totally clueless and it's some university thing.
    • Ref #34 seems to have some problems with it-2 links to the same information, plus the message board reference is unncessary.

Please scan for more problems like this as well.--Dark Kubrick 22:19, 19 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • I took care of a few of your concerns, except for reference #12, which was written by another user. I don't consider any of the things you've brought up to be "major problems." They're really, really minor problems that you've blown out of proportion. (Ibaranoff24 23:07, 19 January 2007 (UTC))[reply]

Having a consistent reference style is important for the article. And only my second bulleted concern has been fully addressed. Can you provide a counter-argument for the Pre-/Production sections?--Dark Kubrick 23:17, 19 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • There's no other way to have that information in the article without the quotes. You can't summarize the "important information" because all of the quoted information is important. (Ibaranoff24 23:22, 19 January 2007 (UTC))[reply]
    • The quoted information is important, but it looks like chunks from the sources were simply copied and pasted into the article. Wikipedia should tell most of the story, not rely on quotes as substitutes for original text.--Dark Kubrick 03:33, 20 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • Well, that's your opinion, and I don't agree with it. I think the current style of the article works really well. (Ibaranoff24 04:04, 20 January 2007 (UTC))[reply]
        • But why don't you agree with it? It's easy to just say that you have an opinion and you think "it works really well". This is why I wish more editors would participate in this article's FAC.--Dark Kubrick 13:43, 20 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article review. No further edits should be made to this page.
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