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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by GrahamColm 07:22, 13 May 2012 [1].

Santa Maria de Ovila

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Santa Maria de Ovila (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): Binksternet (talk) 06:17, 11 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This is a tragic story of architectural pillage, a famously acquisitive American millionaire taking a Spanish monastery out of its native country. The article came up recently at FAC: Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Santa Maria de Ovila/archive1. Unfortunately, real life intervened for me and I did not get all the way through the points that were brought up. Since then I have addressed the points and I feel like the article is ready to progress forward. Binksternet (talk) 06:17, 11 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comments. It is an interesting article, but it has a number of problems:

  1. In the 'Foundation' section does 'church' and 'chapel' mean the same building? If so then a consistent terminology should be used. In addition, does this church have a name?
  2. In 'Removal to California' section the sentence in parentheses '(In 1954, it was re-assembled in Florida as a tourist attraction which was later made the St. Bernard de Clairvaux Church' is unclear to me. Does it mean that the monastery in Florida was made into a church? This does not make sense.
  3. Can the next section 'Spanish ruins' be rewritten in an orderly fashion? Now it has duplicative sentences like There are crumbling walls, yards, double arches of the Renaissance-era cloister, and part of the Gothic roof of the church turned into a garage and storage which duplicates the next paragraph. Or the first sentence of the second paragraph mentions 'nave', which is again is mentioned in the fourth sentence.
  4. In 'Wyntoon' section several sentences repeat what has been already said about dismantling the monastery. Can this duplication be removed?
Ruslik_Zero 16:16, 11 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"it" in the parentheses refers to the monastery as a whole. It obviously can not be converted to a church. Ruslik_Zero 17:23, 1 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I have reworded the bit. It now says, "...a tourist attraction which was later acquired by the Episcopal Diocese of South Florida and called the St. Bernard de Clairvaux Church." Binksternet (talk) 16:21, 2 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Further comments:

  1. In the 'Foundation' section there is a sentence: "The abbey, the monastic quarters, the cloister and the church were built over three decades", but is not abbey a synomim of a monastery?
  2. The third paragraph (which was moved from another section) looks like a foreign object. It simply interupts the flow. I think it should be better integrated into this section.
  3. In addition, the last sentence reads "On the eastern side of the cloister was the monastery, the sacristy, the priory cell, and the chapter house" How can the whole (monastery) be on "the eastern side" of one of its parts?
Ruslik_Zero 18:53, 1 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I have addressed your three further comments. Binksternet (talk) 16:56, 2 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - spotchecks not done. Nikkimaria (talk) 15:04, 13 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • "Its upper floor was built as a dormitory 27 by 90 feet (8.2 by 27 m) with a long barrel vaulted ceiling. There are crumbling walls, yards, double arches of the Renaissance-era cloister, and part of the Gothic roof of the church turned into a garage and storage." - source?
  • What is the purpose of your bibliography section? These sources don't seem to be cited in the article
  • Bibliography entries should use same format as footnotes
  • Aache or AACHE Ediciones?
  • Publisher for Serrano 2001? Nikkimaria (talk) 15:04, 13 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Binksternet replies
  • The chapel/church question is: they are the same. I streamlined the article by using 'church'.
  • Yes, the Florida reconstruction of the Spanish monastery St. Bernard de Clairvaux was later used by a church group, and thus became a church.
  • I will work to eliminate duplicate and redundant ideas.
  • The Spanish ruins information comes from the Spanish sources. I will pore through them to determine which one supports the church turned into a garage, etc.
  • The Bibliography section is vestigial, left over from my initial porting of text from Monasterio de Santa María de Óvila, the Spanish Wikipedia version. I added to it, making it a list of major works about the topic. I can push the entries up into the article as references if required, or I can turn the section into "Further reading", or a combination.
  • It's AACHE, of course. Corrected.
  • I added the publisher to Serrano 2001. Binksternet (talk) 02:05, 16 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments
  • I copyedited] about half of the article quickly, throwing up some less than optimal phrasing and missing links, not all of which I changed (& of course I hope I did not get anything wrong). I think a more thorough copy-edit is needed.
  • It's bound to be complicated, but I was left somewhat unclear as to what we now have left in the various locations. For example what does/will the New Trappists chapter house consist of? Medieval details built into modern walls and foundations? Johnbod (talk) 19:41, 17 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Support from FayeDizard

Wyntoon *'because his fortunes were too far reduced, with too many projects to fund and the Great Depression shrinking his cash flow significantly' - feels a bit overloaded - maybe just one of the three reasons? * 'the Bernard Maybeck-designed fantasy chalet burned down in 1929.' - it's not obvious to me that the chalet is the one being replaced, maybe a bit of rearrangement... *'wished' -> 'wanted' *'a heroic scale.' - for me, this does not sound massively encyclopaedic maybe just a 'large' scale... maybe if you can quote the heroic it would suit...


Golden Gate Park

  • 'The museum plan was estimated to cost $500,000 but that amount was not available. Morgan eagerly drew up restrained and conservative plans for the museum, this project being more in her personal style than the fantasy of Wyntoon. She prepared several layouts for the city to approve, the final one having a different arrangement of the buildings than in Spain.' - I can't find this in source [3] - can you give me a bit of direction?
  • Maybe not the wikilinking of the hammer? But largely up to you...


University of San Francisco

  • 'In 1964–1965,' -> 'Between 1964–1965,'
  • 'It was in March 1931 that Hearst had agreed to purchase this church portal ' - maybe rephrase to 'Hearst had agreed to purchase this church portal in 1931'
  • Not sure what the significant of the university being a Jesuit university is? Maybe expand... <edit>Need to think about this a bit</edit>

Abbey of New Clairvaux

  • "On September 15, 1955—his first day in California—arriving by airplane to serve in Vina, California, at Our Lady of New Clairvaux, Trappists of the order known as Cistercians of the Strict Observance,[26] his superior drove him through Golden Gate Park where they stopped to see the stones sitting among the weeds. " feels like a long sentence that could do with a bit of adjustment for readability.
  • "From time to time in subsequent years, Davis inspected the stones to see that they were faring poorly, subject to weather and vandalism." -vandalism isn't mentioned in the source (various other causes are... and you could probably argue the point...)
  • I'm not convinced it's relevant that Margaret Burke has a doctorate - maybe make more clear in the text?
  • 'mounted a website' - I think 'launched' would be a better word.
  • 'he had several truckloads of stones delivered, but they were returned because of ownership questions.' - I think this is a really interesting bit of the article, but it feels a little glossed over - I'd really like to see the ownership questions part referenced individually (sounds a bit like he went and nicked them in the middle of the night...) <edit> this has (I think) been removed, was it not supported or has something odd happened?</edit>
  • more generally I have some unease about the structure of some of the fragments of prose - so 'the stones began to be fitted together', 'The strength of the building is doubled',
  • '"west of the Rockies", referring to the Rocky Mountains' - my instinct here is to drop the 'referring to the Rocky Mountains' and wikilink 'Rockies' but I've got no idea how that fits with MOS conventions.
  • 'arriving by airplane' I think we can reasonably say 'flying' here.
  • 'Davis made two further requests for the chapter house stones, in 1983 and 1987, but was unsuccessful in obtaining them' - how about 'Davis made two unsuccessful requests for the chapter house stones, in 1983 and 1987'
  • 'and the city was stimulated into action' I tend towards dropping this - I think it detracts from the important stuff around it.

Second lot of replies

Lede looks lovely...

  • 'Catholic institutions in land' - would be make sense to me as 'Catholic institutions on land' but I'm not sure either way…
  • 'The abbey, the monastic quarters, the cloister and the church were built over three decades' is this the three decades following 1181 or just a set period of time? it's not clear that those parts were started with the rest of the building in 1181…

*'renewed attack by the Moors.' I'm not too worried about this, but the sentance appears to suggest that the 'moors' would renew their attack on the monastery rather than the general area…

  • I'd drop 'cut very neatly' because detracts a little from the surrounding text...
  • 'Because of its prosperity and the repeated expansion projects, Santa María de Óvila contained examples of every Spanish religious architectural style used from 1200 to 1600.[5] Still, even at its height, Óvila remained one of the smallest Cistercian monasteries in the region of Castile.[4]' I'm not a massive fan of the structure here... maybe a bit of a reword? The 'still, even at' feels a bit unencyclopeidic and the part about the architectural style feels like it might want a quote - so maybe something along the lines of 'Despite it's small size (Óvila remained one of the smallest Cistercian monasteries in the region), John Smith has stated that "Santa María de Óvila contained examples of every Spanish religious architectural style used from 1200 to 1600".[5]'?
  • I'd drop 'changes to the areas surrounding Santa María de Óvila initiated a slow decline. '
  • I'd also drop 'precarious'
  • " The monastery's land holdings passed one by one into the hands' this implies that the monastery lost all the lands - would it be more correct to say 'Many of the monastery's land holdings passed into the hands'?

*'The precarious situation of the monastery was worsened in the 18th century by a fire which destroyed part of the monastery during the War of the Spanish Succession.[8]' Settling dates twice - how about 'The precarious situation of the monastery was worsened during the War of the Spanish Succession by a fire that destroyed part of the monastery.[8]

  • 'Other valuables such as books and historic documents were stolen and sold.' I think it would be nice if this sentence could have it's own citation, even if it is also cited by [5].
  • 'The cartulary of the monastery, a thick manuscript holding copies of royal privileges granted to the monastery in the Middle Ages, went to a private owner.' it's not clear if this is part of the auction or a separate thing…

*I'd drop 'handsome' although I'm aware that very much lessens the impact of the sentence...

  • I'd be inclined to move the description of the church shape from 'Spanish ruins' up to where the article describes building work, it feels a little odd to precisely describe what was left after 10,000 stones were removed...
  • ' 'long barrel-vaulted' doesn't mean much to me - can you link it to a particular style of architecture?

*I'm not following why 'worth about 900 grams of gold' is relevant? I think I must be missing something…

  • The sentence structure of 'Seeking to resell the buildings, Beloso invited Arthur Byne to look at them. Byne was an art agent living in Madrid; his biggest client was American newspaper magnate William Randolph Hearst.' is a little bit uncomfortable, but I'm afraid I don't have much in the way of better idea… maybe switch '; his' for 'whose' and drop the 'Seeking to resell the buildings'…
  • For Hearst, Byne had previously bought a Spanish monastery in 1925, the monastery of Santa María la Real de Sacramenia which was dismantled, crated and shipped to New York where it was stored in a warehouse in the Bronx.[11]' I would rewrite to 'Byne had previously bought the monastery of Santa María la Real de Sacramenia in 1925 for Hearst, which was dismantled, crated and shipped to New York where it was stored in a warehouse in the Bronx.[11]' and if you want to reduce it a bit more, maybe even… 'In 1925 Byne had bought the monastery of Santa María la Real de Sacramenia for Hearst; it was dismantled and shipped to New York where it was stored in a warehouse.[11]'
  • I'd drop 'In 1930, Byne was working to satisfy a request from Hearst for another Spanish monastery; Beloso's buildings looked very promising.'
  • I'm not sure if 'a price roughly equivalent to $1.3 million in today's currency' should be cited - couldn't find anything in MOS that covered how wiki likes us to deal with 'in today's prices' questions…

*I'd drop 'spur' and 'steel' in the sentence 'To move all the stones, Byne and Steilberg had a spur road built to the Tagus, and a barge attached to a fixed steel cable was assigned to ferry stones across'

  • Can we merge the sentences 'Men pushed the small rail cars along the narrow gauge tracks. Cranes lifted stones onto and off the ferry at both sides of the river. '?
  • 'as truck after truck full of 700-year-old stones rumbled through Valencia to the docks' I'd drop as unencyclopedic…
  • I would change 'Byne's lawyer persuaded the Minister of Labor to allow the work to continue—the minister understood that the illegal project employed more than a hundred men and put money into the severely depressed economy' to 'Byne's lawyer persuaded the Minister of Labor to allow the work to continue on the grounds that the project employed more than a hundred men and put money into the severely depressed economy'
Binksternet replies
  • There are a couple of suggestions here that go against MOS. One is to use the wording "Between 1964–1965" which is deprecated at WP:ENDASH. Another is to place a wikilink inside a direct quote which is deprecated at Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Linking. The latter guide implies there are several possibilities for my formulation:
  • I straightened out the bit in 1982 where some stones were trucked to Vina and then back to San Francisco. In searching for more detail I came across a fine new source from a paper in Chico that's local to the monks: Chico News & Review.
  • I think keeping the word "Jesuit" is useful to describe the university, so Catholic or other people who are concerned about religious aspects of the stones will know the context of the old portal's current home.
  • Regarding the point that it is unclear whether there are medieval details built into modern walls and foundations in the rebuilding chapter house in Vina, I don't know exactly. I think it is a mixture of old stones and new stones cut to replace the missing ones. In Spain, the chapter house walls were solid stone. I am guessing that the California version will have some of the Spanish stone cut away on the interior face to make room for steel reinforcement rods and such. The last stone was put in place on December 7, 2011, but the whole thing is not quite finished. I am waiting for a detailed description in architectural journals following completion. Binksternet (talk) 01:25, 21 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Still to be done: reduce repetitious text. Binksternet (talk) 02:23, 21 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Setting aside some quality editing time today. Binksternet (talk) 14:41, 6 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]


Image Review Images are good to go.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 20:41, 20 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Question about Bibliography

What is the consensus here about the existence of the bibliography section below the reference section? The books and articles in the bibliography stand out as the best works that devote the most attention to the subject, but they can all be pushed upward into the reference section to make the bibliography disappear if needed. Nikkimaria questioned its existence, which is why I'm asking for people's thoughts. Compare this with the only other two articles that I championed for FA status: Port Chicago disaster has a similar layout but the sections are "Notes" (for cites) and "References" (for major books and articles); whereas the biography article Henry Edwards (entomologist) has a level 2 "References" section broken up into level 3 headings of "Notes" and "Bibliography". Other FA articles on the subject of architecture vary in style of reference sections and lists of sources: Millennium Park has level 2 "Notes" and "References" sections; Egyptian temple has level 2 "Notes and citations", "Works cited" and "Further reading" sections; Buckingham Palace has level 2 "Notes" and "References" which function exactly like Santa Maria de Ovila's "References" and "Bibliography". Should I rename the sections to match Buckingham Palace and Millennium Park? Binksternet (talk) 17:38, 23 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I like the two level format myself, but you've set it up differently than I do. I generally use the notes only for page citations; you've got full citations that I'd place in the Bibliography so I'm not sure that there's really any purpose to that section. And to be precise, Nikkimaria questioned the existence of the bibliography section because she didn't see any citations to any of the books there in the notes section. They are there, but they don't stand out among the full length citations.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 18:03, 23 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I have just changed the article as I suggested above. Binksternet (talk) 23:20, 26 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Update

The article needs to have more supporters for it to progress to FA. Any takers besides FayeDizard? Binksternet (talk) 18:59, 23 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe you should try reviewing other FACs so other people might be more interested in reviewing yours? There is a severe lack of reviewers right now so it would only make sense that some of our FAC writers could review as well. That being said, I will help out with spotchecks sometime later today. ClayClayClay 17:54, 25 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comments. As always, feel free to revert my copyediting. Please check the edit summaries. Btw, you can just fix these if you like and not reply, but if you reply, please reply line-by-line with two bullets rather than in a separate paragraph. - Dank (push to talk)

  • "For Hearst, Byne had previously bought a Spanish monastery in 1925, the monastery of Santa María la Real de Sacramenia which ...": word order, repetition, commas. I'd go with: In 1925, Byne had bought Hearst the monastery of Santa María la Real de Sacramenia, which ...
  • "a tourist attraction which was later made the St. Bernard de Clairvaux Church": became?
  • "in today's currency": See WP:DATED
  • "arrived March 9, 1931": arrived on, per Garner's
  • "There are crumbling walls, open yards and part of the Gothic roof of the church turned into a garage and storage space.": Not sure what you're saying.
  • "with the monastery's chapter house serving as the castle's entrance hall, and the large church used to enclose a swimming pool": "enclosing"
  • "At the Port of San Francisco, each shipment of stones was inspected by Steilberg; several thousand crates in all.": At the Port of San Francisco, Steilberg inspected each shipment of stones, several thousand crates in all.
  • "in exchange for the payment by the city": in exchange for payment by the city, or in exchange for the city's payment
  • "Hearst stipulated the stones be used to construct a group of museum buildings in Golden Gate Park, adjoining the de Young Museum.": Hearst stipulated the stones be used to construct a group of museum buildings adjoining the de Young Museum in Golden Gate Park.
  • "Hindu-styled": ?
  • "In 1964–1965": Partly in 64 and partly in 65? ("In 1964 and 1965"). In 64 or 65, but you don't know which? ("In 1964 or 1965"). In a one-year period that began in 1964? ("In 1964's [whatever] year" sometimes works, but "and" or "or" can work too.)
  • "He arrived that day in San Francisco to serve as a new monk in Vina, California, at Our Lady of New Clairvaux, Trappists of the order known as Cistercians of the Strict Observance, whose land ...": "Our Lady of New Clairvaux" can serve as a place or a group of people, but not both at the same time.
  • "was once used by Leland Stanford to grow wine grapes. His superior ...": not Stanford's superior.
  • "there were more than half of the required stones for the chapter house, and more than 90% of the repeating-pattern stones needed as templates to carve replacements": Not sure what you're saying. - Dank (push to talk) 19:09, 29 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Great, all that's left is the "crumbling walls" bit and the inflation language. Note that my suggestion above includes a template that gives you a ref, required by the inflation template. - Dank (push to talk) 02:15, 4 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support on prose per standard disclaimer. I see you fixed the inflation bit; I took a guess on the other and wrote "Crumbling walls ... were turned into a garage and storage space." Correct that if it's wrong, please. - Dank (push to talk) 03:03, 4 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments, leaning toward supporting. Great work on this—it's a very interesting read.
  • Consider "Today, the remnant buildings and walls stand on private farmland."
  • Some architectural/church jargon lost me: "barrel-vaulted great nave", "sacristy", "priory cell", "chapter house", etc. I see that you link chapter house later—need to link first mention.
  • "The refectory (dining hall) shows an architecture" The last phrase reads strangely to me. Is "an architecture" normal usage? Or should we say "shows an architectural style"?
  • "Because of its prosperity and the repeated expansion projects, Santa María de Óvila contained examples of every Spanish religious architectural style used from 1200 to 1600." Not crazy about "contained", which suggests the styles were all inside the monastery. Perhaps "exhibited".
  • Two of those instances are in image captions where they are appropriate. One is in the lead section and one is the article body. I think these four instances are fitting and defensible. Binksternet (talk) 03:08, 4 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments from Crisco 1492
Addressed comments from Crisco 1492 moved to talk
  • Delegate notes

Spotchecks

  • Article: In 1191, the king confirmed the monastery and its surrounding fields as belonging to the Cistercian Order.
  • Source: The location, along with Muriel and its four granges and other property, was donated to the Cistercian Order on 29 June 1191 by the King.
  • Article:In 1928, the Spanish state sold the monastery to Fernando Beloso for a little more than 3,100 pesetas..
  • Source:..y a continuación en febrero de 1928 el Sr. Beloso adquirió del Estado los edificios monasteriales de Ovila en la cantidad de 3.130 pesetas.
  • Article: The foundation of the church can be seen
  • Source: I cannot find this fact, and the document was written in 1982.
  • Article: In 1981, architectural historian Margaret Burke began working under a grant from the Hearst Foundation to inventory the remaining stones.
  • Source: Here they are indeed, blocks 800 years old, once the sacred walls and soaring archways of the 12th-century Spanish monastery Santa Maria de Ovila -- and later the property of the brazenly wealthy American William Randolph Hearst. I can't see a reference to Margaret Burke.
  • Article: ... and the oldest building in America west of the Rocky Mountains.
  • Source: They constitute the oldest building west of the Rockies, one of the oldest in the U.S., one of three medieval Cistercian houses of worship in America and the only one still used by actual Cistercians.
  • Article:Hearst died in 1951, and Morgan died in 1957; neither of them saw anything built with the stones.
  • Source: He (Hearst) died in 1951 aged 88. I cannot find Morgan's death mentioned on this page.
  • Article: In 1925, Byne had bought Hearst the monastery of Santa María la Real de Sacramenia which was dismantled, crated and shipped to New York where it was stored in a warehouse in the Bronx
  • Source: No preview available.
  • Article: After Hearst conveyed his enthusiasm for the project, Beloso sold Byne the stones for $85,000, including the cloister, the chapter house, the refectory and the dormitory for novices.
  • Source: Nearly a century later, an art dealer working for Hearst, a voracious collector, stumbled across the ruins and purchased them for $85,000.
  • Article: Steilberg inspected each shipment of stones, several thousand crates in all.
  • Source: So all the stones arrived in San Francisco, where they were inspected by Steilberg and placed in the largest warehouse in the city.
  • Article: In September 1993, museum director Harry Parker joined with Davis to sign an unconditional permanent loan of the chapter house stones to New Clairvaux.
  • Source: Then the abbot asked for just the chapter house entrance portal pieces on permanent loan. ...Third, that a review of the loan agreement be conducted every five years. Finally, that the chapter house stones must go to the abbey on conditional loan...Father Thomas, who objected to the trustees’ seeking to impose conditions upon the abbey when their reconstruction efforts over the years had failed, signed an agreement with Parker on Sept. 12, 1993, giving the stones outright to the abbey with the promise the chapter house would be accurately restored and the public would have access three times a week for 10 years.
    • Three potential issues: The visibility of the foundations of the church, a reference for Morgan's death and Margaret Burke's inventory. Otherwise no problems. Graham Colm (talk) 16:39, 12 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      • I added the right page for Morgan's death, in the same book as Hearst's death. I added a news item in Spanish discussing the church site today. Regarding the 1981 Burke grant to inventory the stones, the fact is already cited in Banisky's article in the LA Times. It says, "In 1981, as a volunteer at the de Young and with grants, appropriately, from the Hearst Foundation, Burke began an inventory." Binksternet (talk) 06:16, 13 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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