Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Rogers Hornsby/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ucucha 01:20, 20 October 2011 [1].

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Rogers Hornsby

Rogers Hornsby (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

• Featured article candidates/Rogers Hornsby/archive1

Nominator(s): User:Oriolesfan8, Wizardman 04:34, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured article because I believe it meets all featured criteria after having a rather odd history. I reviewed this at GAN some time ago, then a few months down the road, realized it wasn't too far off from FAC. I did some copyediting to the article, got it peer reviewed, and did a couple more read throughs to make sure I didn't miss anything.

As for the player, my last FAC was on a guy who was considered very well-liked by all. Hornsby, well, is definitely not that. He had his own way of doing things, to say the least, and as a player it worked, given that he's got the second highest batting average ever. He was an early inductee into the Baseball Hall of Fame, and is pretty much the consensus best second baseman ever by those not named Bill James.

May or may not be a WP:CUP nom depending on how this round goes, and Hornsby would probably chastise me for bothering with that. The article is what matters. Wizardman _{Operation Big Bear} 04:34, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Source review - spotchecks not done. Nikkimaria (talk) 19:43, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

• "Meanwhile, Hornsby's Cubs finished 84–70, 17 games back of the pennant-winning Cardinals, and four games back of the Giants." - source?
• "He finished the year with five hits and a .208 average" - source?
• FN 93, 94, 97, 101, 103: page(s)?
• Don't repeat cited sources in External links. Nikkimaria (talk) 19:43, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

  All fixed with the exception of the Sport Magazine page number. I have no access to the magazine and was only able to find the month that it was posted in said magazine, rather than any page number. Wizardman _{Operation Big Bear} 17:29, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

• No issues were revealed by copyscape searches. Graham Colm (talk) 18:16, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

• Comment This is a very good article, but I do have some suggestions.
• It might be worth mentioning that in 1915, at age 19, Hornsby was the fourth youngest player to play in the National League. For a source you can use [2].
• "On defense, Hornsby led the league in putouts, double plays, and fielding percentage" is technically incorrect, and not supported by your source. What you meant to say was that he led all 2nd basemen in the league in those statistics. I realize anyone highly knowledgeable in baseball stats would know that was what you meant, but a more casual reader might not.
• Would it be possible to mention that Baseball-Reference.com ranks Hornsby 8th in Wins above replacement among all non-pitchers in major league history? I realize you don't want to go into the sabermetrics weeds with an article like this, but it is frustrating to someone like me to not see at least some reference to all the modern statistical tools that can be used to compare player performance across eras, and WAR is becoming increasingly mainstream. Rusty Cashman (talk) 17:57, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

  Issues fixed. I'm not the biggest fan of sabrmetric additions on the articles for reasons you meantion, but I went ahead and added in the WAR stat at least. Wizardman _{Operation Big Bear} 19:07, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

Comments: It looks pretty good, but there are a few prose issues which need sorting. A few random examples: "with Hornsby tagging out Babe Ruth" (noun verb-ing), "In 1914, Hornsby had his older brother Everett, a minor league baseball player for many years,[6] arrange for him to get a tryout with the Texas League's Dallas Steers" (long sentence, slightly awkward with "had his"), " He also repeated as the leader..." (how can you repeat as a leader? Perhaps "led the league again"?). There are also a few paragraphs which seem to be lists of facts bolted together which do not really flow. I would be happy to copy-edit the article if that would help, as it does not need too much doing. Otherwise, I've read to the end of the Cardinals section and will read the rest later. Here are some other points I noticed. --Sarastro1 (talk) 20:33, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

• Lead: a bit too listy? Also, there seem to be an overwhelming number of links in the first paragraph, but I'm not too sure much can be done about that.
• Do you accumulate a batting average?
• "…married twice during that time…": This interrupts the flow slightly and may be better moved to the last paragraph.
• "but he was claimed off waivers by the St. Louis Browns during the season." I've followed the link for waivers but still don't really understand it; also, the sentence looks ungrammatical the way it is written now (although I could be wrong!).
• A word on what Swift and Company did would be helpful.
• "With new stability in his defensive assignment that year, his batting statistics improved: his .327 batting average was second in the league, and he led the league in triples (17), total bases (253), and slugging percentage (.484).": The ref given supports the statistics, but does not support that the stability of his role contributed to the improvement.
• 3rd paragraph of 1915-19 seems very choppy and jumps around with some seemingly unconnected facts. I think it needs smoothing. For example, I'm not sure about the importance of all the detail about his (lack of) military service.
• "but after the season ended, he announced that he would never play under Hendricks again. Hendricks was subsequently fired after the season…" Although not saying so explicitly, the placing of these two facts together implies that Hornsby's disapproval directly led to Hendricks' dismissal. Is this the case?
• "In 1920, Rickey succeeded in moving Hornsby to second base, and he remained there for the rest of his career." Slightly strange way of phrasing it; presumably the problem was not moving him to the position, but making him successful there. And the credit would not go to Rickey, surely?
• The Alexander quote seems to come out of the blue; there is nothing that looks like he was setting the world alight, but then Alexander says he is one of the greatest ever? On the basis of one game? I doubt it, but the article gives this impression here.
• My personal inclination would be to move all the family stuff about marriage and children to the personal life section to keep the flow of his career.

• As I mention below, fair enough if you want to keep it like this, but the comments need smoothing: "On September 23, he married Sarah Martin in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania" is just jammed onto the end of a paragraph and looks out of place. --Sarastro1 (talk) 21:25, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

• "The rise of the live-ball era helped Hornsby hit for increased power during the 1921 season.": Why? Perhaps a word or two rather than making the reader follow the link. And would it not be "hit 'with increased power"?

• Still not quite following it. But that could be me! --Sarastro1 (talk) 21:25, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

• "The Cardinals had a Rogers Hornsby Day on September 30…" What is a Rogers Hornsby Day? It will make the reader wonder, and I think this should be explained more.
• "as Hornsby homered": Is "homer" a verb? Not entirely encyclopaedic?
• "He then became the only player in history to hit over 40 home runs and bat over .400 in the same season." Up until then, or ever?
• "Prior to the 1922 season, Hornsby sought a three-year contract for $25,000 per season.": I have a minor problem here. Apart from the Alexander quote above, there is little or no indication that he is anything out of the ordinary up to this point. I think there should be more of a sense of him being a big deal by 1922.

• OK but needs smoothing I think. --Sarastro1 (talk) 21:25, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

• Hitting streak is linked on the second instance but not the first in the 1920-26 section.
• "During a game in August, Hornsby threw up his hands in disgust in response to a sign flashed by Rickey.": I think I follow this, but I think it may be a mystery to the non-specialist. What sign was flashed and why?--Sarastro1 (talk) 20:33, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

  Fixes in progress, but a couple comments first. For the marriage info in the lead, should I just move any personal stuff to a fourth paragraph and move any other stat stuff upward? That seems like the best bet. I'm not the biggest fan of creating a personal life section in articles as it feels like a cop-out, but if that does seem necessary then I'll move all that stuff out of the body. Wizardman _{Operation Big Bear} 02:47, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

• Yes, I think all the personal stuff to paragraph 4. A personal life section, in my opinion, would help this article as the reader would have all his career together and the flow would not be interrupted. But I would no insist on it. However, if you don't want a separate section, I think it needs integrating into his career a little more smoothly. --Sarastro1 (talk) 13:50, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

• Done, mostly. I modified the lead with personal info but didn't change what's in the career section. If it still doesn't feel right I'll move that stuff down. Not sure what sign was flashed re: the last point; I would actually consider it a bit irrelevant, if only because Hornsby's reaction to whatever sign it was seems to be the main point of the sentence. I'll try and find more about the Rogers Hornsby Day; basically it was just a day that they played a game that they made in his honor, not unlike a bobblehead night nowadays. I'll try and find a bit more to show that he was a big deal; I don't currently have access to the books so I'll have to hope google news doesn't let me down. Wizardman _{Operation Big Bear} 02:47, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

More comments: Looks good on content overall. I think the article definitely needs a copy-edit, but I'm not sure when or if I could do it at the moment. The main problem is with a few bits of uncomfortable prose (random examples: "Most of the players he managed did not like him, although some (like Woody English and Clint Courtney) did" or "Hornsby did not initially argue the call, and a few minutes later Veeck forced him to do it (when it was already too late to do anything about it). This led to Hornsby and the Browns parting ways.") The other issue remains one of flow and making some seemingly unrelated statements about what happened in each season fit together a little better. If no-one gets to it before the end of the week, I may be able to have a go. As I said, nothing major and I look forward to supporting. --Sarastro1 (talk) 21:25, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

• "However, Hornsby's gambling problems at the racetrack, among other things, annoyed Giants owner Charles Stoneham." What other things?
• "In 1932, Hornsby's feet were bothering him..." Any chance of a little more medical precision?
• "The release occurred because William Veeck, Sr., who was running the team, was not happy with the way Hornsby was managing the Cubs." Why?

I think a few more points are needed here. At the moment, there is one example which does not really give an idea what Hornsby was doing "wrong"; was he expecting too much from the players, treating them badly, too demanding? The example does not suggest the overall problem.

• "By most contemporary accounts, he was at least as mean and nasty as Cobb..." Was Cobb notably nasty? Otherwise this seems an odd comparison. --Sarastro1 (talk) 21:25, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

  A copyedit would be nice to add in from a non-baseball person; I've been through it enough times I probably won't catch much. Fixed the first two, reading Veeck's bio now to find something on the third (that's been on my to-do list forever but that's another story). As for Cobb, absolutely. Great ballplayer, bad person. He's probably someone you could build a reality show around nowadays, FWIW. Wizardman _{Operation Big Bear} 02:54, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

  Added a Veeck story to address point three. Glad I found it, helps to show Hornsby's attitude and why people hated him. Wizardman _{Operation Big Bear} 03:04, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

  Some comments on the still open points. For the first paragraph of the lead, unfortunately there's no way around all those links; only way would be to link the teams in the second paragraph instead, but that goes against linking guidelines. I tried tweaking the personal info, but after doing so I just moved it to the personal life section, since most of it was already there. Not sure what else I can do with the 15-19 paragraph; reworded again, I'll see if I can find extra info to add so it doesn't feel off. The live-ball era is basically what it says there. For whatever reason, it stopped being a pitching game and everyone started hitting; Babe Ruth was a catalyst for that. The 40/.400 note is ever, hasn't come all that close to being done since. Further cleaned up 1922, and found out what the sign was and clarified that piece. Wizardman _{Operation Big Bear} 15:22, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

  Ty Cobb was legendary for for vitriolic tirades, dirty play, and violent incidents that bordered on the psychotic not to mention what the lead to his article calls his "surly temperament". It is true that a reader totally unfamiliar with baseball history might not understand the comparison, but that is probably a minority of readers of this article and if they are really curious about it Cobb is wiki-linked in this article. If you still think there is a problem you could go with "as mean and nasty as the famously surly Ty Cobb". Rusty Cashman (talk) 17:54, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

I still think a comment is needed on Cobb, as you cannot assume a reader is familiar with him. Also, I do not believe in this instance that it should be necessary to follow a link to find out. A simple phrase or two would be enough. Also, I'm not too sure that "mean and nasty" is particularly encyclopaedic. --Sarastro1 (talk) 18:31, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

Fair enough; added an extra ref and clarification. As for the mean and nasty, it's iffy perhaps, but that's directly what it says in the reference. Further clarified the Veeck point as well, giving a general overview to go with the specific. Wizardman _{Operation Big Bear} 18:54, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

I think "mean and nasty" is fine to show how Hornsby's contemporaries viewed him, my only concern with the text now is characterizing Ty Cobb's attitude as "poor" a "poor attitude" can refer to an employee who is unmotivated and doesn't care about his job, a description that would NEVER fit Cobb. I would prefer "aggressive attitude", "surly attitude", or simply "angry attitude" any of which is more descriptive than "poor attitude" for Cobb. Rusty Cashman (talk) 17:53, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Good point, fixed that. Wizardman _{Operation Big Bear} 18:03, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Source-checking – Checked about 10 sources and came up with a few issues...

• Reference 8 doesn't appear to give Hornsby's 1914 error totals. Did you get that from one of the books?
• In 1937, Hornsby had 18 hits in 20 games, not 11. He did have 11 RBI that year, in case that's what you meant.
• Ref 47 doesn't give the Cardinals' full-season record that year; it only gives the record for the games that Hornsby managed.
• While I'm here, what makes The Baseball Page (ref 101) a reliable source? This is a new one for FAC, as far as I know. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 16:30, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

  First three fixed. First was was from the book, accidentally removed it a while back. Third I added both records and both refs since it shows things a bit better. I'd say TBP isn't reliable for FAC, so I'll find a replacement for that quote I just removed it. Meant to before coming here but forgot. Wizardman _{Operation Big Bear} 22:12, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

  • For number three, does the new source actually say the Cardinals were one game below .500? I didn't see it when I looked, although there are a lot of stats on that page. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 01:08, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

    • I went and swapped out that ref and put a different one in that should make it clear, since it'll be right at the top on this one. Wizardman _{Operation Big Bear} 03:34, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

Support This is a very fine article, easy to read and informative, about an important person in baseball history, and you have addressed all my concerns. Rusty Cashman (talk) 17:41, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

Support: Looks pretty good now. Copy-editing disclaimer: I've cleared up a few last points. Just a couple of remaining issues that I can see. --Sarastro1 (talk) 19:12, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

• WP:DATED: as of 2011 or similar needed for records in the lead and at various points.
• "his father died of unknown circumstances": Does this mean no-one knows how he died anymore, or it is not known why he died? At the very least, it needs to be "in unknown circumstances" or "of unknown [something else]".
• "because he believed Hornsby was an MVP to himself, but not to his team": Not sure about this. Would it be better to say "he was not a team player" or similar?
• Legacy section: "is known" and "is considered" by who?
• "As a result of the divorce, Sarah Hornsby took custody of Rogers Jr." Ref?
• I think all the remaining mentions of his children being born should be moved to the personal life section. --Sarastro1 (talk) 19:12, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

  Fixed. It's not known from anywhere I've seen how he died, so reworded. I'm honestly not worried about dating most of the batting records, given that no one's hit .400 in over 60 years and most of his batting average records are close to unbreakable. Wizardman _{Operation Big Bear} 03:19, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Comment: I'm in the process of tweaking a few things - Wikilinks, non-breaking spaces, etc. In reading the article, I noticed that the paragraph about his 1931 season claims that season was his last as a full-time player, but the next year is described as his last as a regular player. Aren't these statements in contradiction? Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talk • contributions) 19:08, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Fixed, it was 1931. Wizardman _{Operation Big Bear} 03:19, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Image review

• Captions that are not complete sentences should not end in periods
• File:CardsRetiredSTL.PNG - on what source is this image based?
• File:CardsRetiredSTL.PNG: can we specify the artist of this statue? Nikkimaria (talk) 16:42, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

  Fixed the first two. As for the statue pic, I'm not sure where the uploader got it, and the whitespace surrounding the statue is a red flag in my mind. Not sure if commons will do anything with it (may be a freedom of panorama issue), but I'll remove it if I can't find a better replacement. Wizardman _{Operation Big Bear} 03:20, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

  Removed the statue. Either a copyright problem or something that we can get a better pic of anyway. Wizardman _{Operation Big Bear} 16:12, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

• Comment - there are lots of mentions of sums of money throughout the article, eg Hornsbys salary, fines, transfer payments etc. It is possible to have these in 2011 dollars too? I'm sure earning $18,500 a year in the 1920s was a lot, but I would find it useful to see that adjusted for inflation too. Of course if there is a policy or anything that says you can't do that (if it would be original research or anything) then it wouldn't be the end of the world to not have this. Just my 2 cents. Coolug (talk) 09:26, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

  Added those numbers in. They're generally accepted as okay so no problems on that end. Wizardman _{Operation Big Bear} 23:35, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Comment by karanacs. I've done a lot of copyediting - please check to make sure I didn't mess anything up.

• Early life section - did Hornsby start playing semi-pro ball when he dropped out of school and started working full time, or was he playing high school ball, semi-pro ball, and playing on the Swift & Co team all at the same time?
• Was there a plan to do something else with Hornsby when Corhan was picked up in 1916? Was he in danger of being released?
• Is there any info about why Hornsby didn't have confidence in Hendricks?
• Did other players have a problem with Hendricks too?
• Any explanation about why the move to 2nd base didn't stick in 1919 but did in 1920?
• Was Jack Ryder's vote the reason that Vance won the first MVP award, or just a contributing factor?
• Why did the Baseball writers of America give a retroactive award? Did that overturn Vance's or was it different?
• Was it unusual for a player to be manager AND player at once? (1925)

• No it was not uncommon at all in the 1920s. In fact it did not become uncommon until the late 1950s, and there were a few player managers in the 1970s. The last player manager was Pete Rose in the mid 1980s. If you feel we need to mention that being a player manager was not uncommon in 1920s here are a couple of sources that could be used: [3] [4]. Rusty Cashman (talk) 17:55, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

• "Shortly before 1927 started" - does this mean the year or the season?
• did Breadon end up buying the shares for $105, or did someone else step in?
• why did Hornsby distrust Giants management?
• How many teams were there in the NL in 1928? I'd like to know in the Braves section - 7th out of what?
• For St Louis Browns - they were 6th place out of how many teams in 1934?
• Is there any more information about why his players seemed to dislike Hornsby so much? I understand why the managers didn't like him, but I'd like a little more detail on what the players didn't like.

Karanacs (talk) 16:31, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

• I'll answer all comments tomorrow. Right now I've read through them and am looking through what sources I can to see if anything comes up. Some of them I'm actually curious of myself now. On Rusty's point, player-managers were in fact common until the 50s. Not sure why exactly, but they were. Wizardman _{Operation Big Bear} 04:04, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

  Fixed some of the tangible requests. A few comments on others. Can't find anything on anyone else not liking Hendricks, just seemed to be Hornsby. Nothing definitive on what they had planned when they acquired Corhan, my guess it they were gonna keep him as a backup so he could develop. On second base, he seemed to get used to the position by 1920 so they were okay with the move. From what B-R tells me, Vance won the MVP award in 1924 by 12 points, so while Hornsby wouldn't have won, it would have made the gap very close had he gotten the vote (takes away the lore now that I found that out). The retroactive award is unofficial, more honorary than anything. The reason players didn't like him as a manager is basically because in the clubhouse he was an extreme micromanager (everything had to be just so for him), yet on the field didn't aid the players all that much. I'll add in some more on that since that's the crux of it. Anything else I didn't note I could not find anything for. Wizardman _{Operation Big Bear} 05:29, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

  On the last point, would you consider Dugan's quote here referencing Hornsby to be worth a mention? Sums up pretty bluntly why players didn't like him. Wizardman _{Operation Big Bear} 17:57, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

  • I like the quote, but I think it would need some background to explain it and probably isn't necessary. Now I want to go watch that movie again, though. Karanacs (talk) 01:36, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Support. My apologies on being late to get back to you. Thanks for your changes. Karanacs (talk) 16:38, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.