Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/P. K. van der Byl 2

P. K. van der Byl

Some months ago this article underwent a previous FAC nomination. It was at a much earlier stage then, and it is now replete with references. Subject was a senior government Minister in Rhodesia during the time it had unilaterally declared independence. It is largely a self-nom, although many others have worked on it. David | Talk 10:39, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

• Support. I corrected some minor issues while reading the article, but have some concerns about the abundance of fair use images. I suppose that can't be helped considering the subject is dead, but not dead long enough. I am also slightly bothered by the use of "op cit" repeatedly in the references section. This stems from a lack of use of the "name" atribute in the <ref> tags. The article is well written and well referenced; good job. —D-Rock 11:34, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Someone named all the refs. Looks cleaner now, thanks. —D-Rock 15:49, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

• Supportive Comment. I cannot formally Support this article since I contributed significantly to it when it was first created. Although, my earlier writings are now largely submerged. I feel that the article satisfies the requirements for FA status. It is comprehensive on its subject, well written, well referenced, well illustrated and stable. The subject is an interesting character of some historical significance. PK's life and times offer major insights into the de-colonisation process in Africa. This should make a readable and useful FA. Bob BScar23625 13:54, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

• Comment. I added names to the references to remove the "op cit" all over the place, as Dbiv pointed out. Image:Udi2-rho.jpg lacks a fair use rationale; frankly, I don't think we should include it, it would probably stretch fair use too far. Generally, many of the images lack fair use rationales, but with the others, I think they could be provided. Will support if that is addressed. Well written and thoroughly sourced. Mangojuice^talk 15:55, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Response : I have expanded the rationales for the two images of PK that I am responsible for. There is no copyright issue with either. I think it extremely unlikely that there could ever be an issue with Udi2-rho. That picture was circulated by the government press office and has been used in many articles and books worldwide. Any copyright involved has long gone. Bob BScar23625 16:15, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Let me retract part of what I said. As a signatory to the unilateral declaration, it's reasonable to include that picture to illustrate the event. I changed the caption to fix the tone. Mangojuice^talk 20:07, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

I fully agree that a fair use claim is appropriate (the historical nature of the event is particularly helpful in this respect). However, "Any copyright involved has long gone" is plain wrong - there are images over 90 years old with their copyright well and truly intact and extant. The fact that a photograph is widely used doesn't mean that it's copyright has expired. What more troubling is the lack of source information. TheGrappler 15:38, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

• Support now, fair use image issue is resolved. Mangojuice^talk 11:37, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

• Weak Object Introduction seems way too short. Also, there seems to be almost no information on the last ten years of his life. QuizQuick 00:08, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Response: I'll have a look at the intro to see if it can be improved. The reason there is little info on his last decade is that P.K. was essentially a private citizen during it, having no political or public role and just living out his retirement in South Africa and Britain with his friends and family. David | Talk 08:33, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

• • Support. Intro is much better, and I see your point about the end of his life. QuizQuick 21:38, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

• Comment Could persondata be added to this article? TheGrappler 11:48, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it can, and I have just added it. David | Talk 11:58, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Nice additions, thanks. TheGrappler 14:38, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

• Object for now - images absolutely must identify sources (the uploader ought to know where the image was found; it's even better if they can identify the original source), and, if clearly under copyright, a thorough effort should be made to identify copyright holders. Sometimes it is true that a photograph is so obscure that all source information has been lost. Official photographs, though, really ought to have their status made clear. Similarly, it's worth thinking twice before claiming that an image is "promotional". Wikipedia:Publicity photos is an interesting read. "Unique historic event" may be worth claiming for the signing of UDI; this seems far far more appropriate than "publicity". TheGrappler 15:38, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Continue to object. One of the images lacks a copyright tag. As described on the fair use tag for the cartoon, "the publication name either visible on the image itself or written in the image description above" - currently it's neither on the description nor the caption. Image:Udi2-rho.jpg lacks an image tag. Image:PK2.jpg states it's coming from a government press information kit - is it? Is there a way to cite which particular kit, when it was issued or somesuch? Similarly, is Image:Pk1.JPG really from a political poster? These two designations look pretty arbitrary. Using a crop from a political poster to illustrate a politician is something of a no-no, like using a crop from a magazine to illustrate a person then claiming "it's okay, it's a magazine cover", or using a crop from an album cover and saying "it's okay, album covers are fair use". You're claiming fair use of a political poster but what you're actually using is a photo of the politician. My suggestion is, if you want to use Image:Pk1.JPG, upload an uncropped version.TheGrappler 12:02, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

What's under consideration is the article and not the images. As far as the cartoon, the publication name is Umbowo and it is on the image - you will see it in the top left. Image:Udi2-rho.jpg now has copyright tags. David | Talk 12:16, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

• Object—2a. It's not nearly as bad as last time (then, it was amateurish), but still needs improvement. Here are examples from the top.
  • "van der Byl opposed attempts to settle with African nationalists in order to prolong the period of white rule"—Ambiguous: opposing or settling would have prolonged white rule? (I genuinely can't tell.)
  • "Nevertheless" in the lead is wrong: it doesn't announce a contradiction with the previous text. The same for "However," in the subsequent sentence.
  • "... he so offended Rhodesia's closest ally South Africa that his powers had to be reduced." This begs too many questions, such as by whom, and in what way. Better to relocate this to the body of the article, where the details can be provided on the spot.
    • Since you're being pernickety about correct use of English, you don't mean "beg the question", you mean "raise the question". To "beg the question" is to assume the answer to some undecided issue. David | Talk 10:27, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
  • "Third class degree"—shouldn't this be "third-class degree", with hyphen and lower-case initial?
  • "He went on from Cambridge to Harvard University Graduate School of Business Administration in 1947-1948, and is counted in the Class of 1949 although he did not obtain a degree[7], and also studied at the University of Witwatersrand[8]." "and is counted in the Class of 1949" is unclear; readers will be confused by the "1947–48" that comes just before this, and the present tense may be awkward. A few more commas would make for easier reading, for example, before "although". I suppose Witwatersrand is in South Africa, but I wouldn't expect most readers to know that. The sentence is just a little long; can you split it?
  • "He was usually known, by friends and opponents, as "PK"." Remove "usually" and the commas for a crisper sentence. Do we need to be told about the upper-class accent yet again? "Upper-class" is hyphenated as a double epithet (unless this is American English).

Can you find a copy-editor who's unfamiliar with the text to iron it all out? Tony 10:24, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

I've interpolated further responses.

• • Taking these points in order:

• • • Is it not fairly obvious that the African nationalists were not white, and therefore settling with them would hardly be the best way of continuing white minority rule? I really can't say.

What is obvious to you may not be so to many of our readers. In any case, we don't want to have to disambiguate any of the meanings, whether one meaning is more likely than another. That's basic to clear prose.

• • • I'm working on a revised opening.

• • • This is a 'teaser' for when the subject is discussed later in the article. Per WP:LEAD this sort of thing is allowed, and excessive detail in the opening paragraphs is not a good thing.

While we don't want excessive detail in the lead, neither do we want vagueness.

• • • "Third class degree" is rarely hyphenated.

I accept this.

• • • The situation itself is unclear. The Harvard members' list counts him in the class of 1949 but says he did not get a degree. My reading of it is that 1947-1948 marks the time he was physically present at Harvard.

Whatever the truth, there's a problem if your meaning is unclear.

• • • Witwatersrand is indeed in SA, as any reader following the link would find out.

Our readers shouldn't have to hit links to work out what you mean.

• • • The unusual accent which PK had was such a significant part of his public perception that it does merit a mention both in the lead and in the text. David | Talk 10:54, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

No, I don't want to be told twice about the accent, especially so soon after the lead, and given that no further detail is provided on the second occurrence.

A few snakes to chop up so that they're not as hard to read:

• "The Ministry had links through the government which ensured that anyone who asked awkward questions could be subject to detention or expulsion, and such action was taken against several foreign journalists (for example, John Worrall, correspondent for The Guardian, was expelled in January 1969)."
• "Van der Byl's exploits as a big-game hunter (he shot his first lion in a garden in Northern Rhodesia at the age of 15[10]), a womaniser and a patron of the arts helped to reinforce his standing and many in the Rhodesian Front believed him to be "a 19th century-style connoisseur, a man of culture and an aristocrat-statesman" in the words of Michael Hartnack, a South African journalist[30]."
• "In April 1972, van der Byl insisted that Rhodesia would not implement any part of an agreement made with the United Kingdom in November 1971 unless Rhodesia's independence was acknowledged, regardless of the answer from the Pearce Commission who were then investigating whether the settlement proposals would be approved by the people of Rhodesia."

Then I'll withdraw my objection. Tony 14:16, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Have had a go, as suggested. Please let me know what you think. David | Talk 23:11, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

• Support As this is looking finely balanced, I will switch from Supportive Comment to outright Support.I feel that the subject matter is interesting and the presentation is at least as good as other FAs. I feel that TheGrappler is being too sensitive over issues of image copyright. Bob BScar23625 16:21, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

A little ingenuous to announce this when you're one of the main contributors to the article. Tony 14:19, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Tony. My early contributions to this article have long been submerged. That said, I have declared my interest above and you are free to strike my Support if you feel it appropriate. Bob BScar23625 18:16, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

I suspect you mean "disingenuous" (?). Bob has been perfectly fair about all this - see this edit to my talk page. David | Talk 14:42, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Bob has been utterly fair and I have no complaints about his conduct. I hope I never get labelled a prickly editor, so it's with a little regret that I'm replying to this at all. I certainly hold high standards, and one of the standards from WP:WIAFA is precisely this: It has images where appropriate, with succinct captions and acceptable copyright status; however, including images is not a prerequisite for a featured article. The images in this article have changed significantly during the nomination period. Each time I have objected and reobjected because new problems have turned up or I've noticed existing ones. Part of my most recent objection was that an image did't even have a copyright tag! That's far from being oversensitive, it's just pointing out that otherwise the image will have to be speedy deleted in 7 days! Similarly, the newspaper cartoon could really do with the newspaper name being listed explicitly in the caption. That license tag is mostly used for front covers where there's no need to caption the title, since it's in big letters anyway. Here it's tucked away in a corner, and it's not obvious whether it's the title or name of cartoonist. Quibble or not, good textbooks almost invariably caption the source when they include cartoons like that, even if copyright issues have expired. Currently, and in obvious violation of the instructions on the license tag (look at the bit in bold text labelled 'To the uploader) there's no fair use rationale given for that image's use in this article. Same goes for the Rhodesia Herald image. Image:Pk1.JPG has no source information and should by rights be deleted with 7 days (if I had been really sensitive I'd have {{nsd}}'d it); if it really is an election poster it's like none I've ever seen before and I am within my rights (at FAC of all places!) to point out that it looks a bit dodgy. If I was being sensitive, I'd be arguing that "this fair use claim is not a strong one and we're pushing our luck by using it" - but all I'm asking is that, in line with WIAFA 4, our basic and established copyright policies are followed in what is our "very best work". I don't want to make people jump through hoop after hoop but our image use policies give a very basic set of steps to be followed and in this case they clearly still haven't been. This shouldn't, ideally, even be an issue at FAC, because it should have been caught and corrected long before it was nominated. Unfortunately it hasn't, but I don't blame the editors in particular because I appreciate WP's practice as a whole has been sloppy. WIAFA 4 makes it clear that it ought to be sorted out before this passes FA, just like citation and copy-editing issues should be.TheGrappler 16:51, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

TheGrappler. Your comments re Image:Pk1.JPG are accepted and the Copyright status and Free Use rationale have been updated. Bob BScar23625 18:16, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

• Excellent, that's a great improvement. I'm impressed that the copyright holder has been identified. TheGrappler 00:11, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

• Comment There are several wikiguidelines applicable to this article. These are tested by a simple peerreviewer script, of which I have put the output on the talkpage. I would strongly suggest to follow these guidelines. Most is simple technical edit-work, deploying specific ways for quotations, notes, etc. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 23:09, 18 July 2006 (UTC).

• Support. TheGrappler is absolutely right that images need to be fully squared away before this is promoted; as far as I can tell, however, that point has now been reached. (If someone else turns up a problem, don't treat this as a disagreement with their objection--I may have missed something.) This is a well researched, well written, and informative article. --Robth^Talk 21:08, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

• Comment - the following is confusing: "His propaganda strategy became increasingly unsuccessful abroad, where PK alienated many of the foreign journalists and politicians that he came into contact with." What or who is PK? - Ta bu shi da yu 04:10, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
  • OK, I've fixed this myself. - Ta bu shi da yu 04:20, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

• Support - very informative, even though the man was so terrible. - Ta bu shi da yu 04:26, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

• Support - A very interesting, detailed and well refrenced article. Bravo to those who put the effort into it. michael ^talk 03:27, 23 July 2006 (UTC)