Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Operation Winter Storm/archive2

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 15:55, 4 June 2010 [1].

Operation Winter Storm edit

Nominator(s): JonCatalán^(Talk) 20:55, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I nominated this article for FAC over a year ago. With summer starting, I've decided to continue my efforts with three articles I abandoned when I went on "permanent" hiatus from Wikipedia. The old nomination archive can be found here. I've spent a little time copyediting it again, and it seems that whatever direct concerns were raised during the last FAC were fixed. So, I'd like to pick up where I left off! JonCatalán^(Talk) 20:55, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment—no dab links, no dead external links. Ucucha 20:59, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sources issues: (very minor)

Ref 39 needs "pp."
Ref 91 needs "pp." not "p."
Bibliography: Ericson books need publisher location (for consistency)

Otherwise sources all look OK, no other issues. Brianboulton (talk) 00:12, 3 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, all those should be updated. JonCatalán^(Talk) 03:25, 3 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose I'm a bit concerned about the article's sourcing. Erich von Manstein's autobiography is not a good source as it's obviously not neutral and has been criticised for manipulating history. Erhard Raus' autobiography also can't be an entirely neutral account. I believe that Alan Clarke's book is now considered outdated (it pre-dated the release of Soviet records by many years). I'm also surprised that the most recent major work on this battle, David Glantz's book Armageddon in Stalingrad: September-November 1942, hasn't been consulted. Nick-D (talk) 03:51, 3 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think that it's worth considering what each of those sources were used for. Manstein's memoirs are used mostly when citing information pertaining to communication between he and the Sixth Army regarding the strength of the latter and Paulus's decision to not break out of the Stalingrad encirclement. Erhard Raus does not provide a general account of Operation Winter Storm. This particular memoir (which is actually not a memoir, but a study of the battle written for the U.S. Army sometime after the war) covers only the 6th Panzer Division on 13 December. I'm not sure this particular part of the article goes into sufficient enough detail as to make it partial towards the Germans (only general details were extracted from Raus' source). In regards to Clark's book, I use him to cover German movements, and so I'm not sure how relevant Soviet archives are here. Also worth considering Paul Siebert originally did take a look at the article, and edited it where he felt that information on Soviet dispositions could be more accurate (using a Russian source)—the discussion in regards to this can be seen on the article's talk page.

Finally, concerning Glantz' new source, I only own the first book of the trilogy. I'm not sure I'm willing to buy the second source (especially since my main area of interests is no longer military history of the Second World War) just to have a detailed account of the battle, whereas all the pertinent information is just a repeat of what he wrote in earlier volumes (most notably the book and journal piece cited in this article). I'm just not convinced Glantz brings any new scholarship, only instead writing a book dedicated to the Stalingrad using Russian archival evidence that he already provides in past books.JonCatalán^(Talk) 04:08, 3 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Given the problems with autobiographies in general, von Manstein's memoirs are not a suitable reference for anything, in my view, particularly given their self-serving nature. I'd suggest that you use a secondary source which evaluates von Manstein's memoirs along with the other relevant sources. Clark's book has been used to cite accounts of the fighting between German and Soviet units as well as German movements. Nick-D (talk) 04:47, 3 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm still not convinced that the evaluation of the article's sourcing is being done objectively, but give that there seems to be two opposed due to the same reason then I'll withdraw the nomination again, and might pick it up at some point in the future. JonCatalán^(Talk) 06:14, 3 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose This article is sadly lacking in sources, even excluding those in German or Russian. The 23rd Panzer Division history has been translated recently and Glantz's latest book should be essential. Erickson isn't reliable at the tactical level as he's simply wrong about Tigers participating in the attack. No Tiger was in Army Group Don's sector until 1 January. And Raus' memoir, Panzer Operations: The Eastern Front Memoir of General Raus, 1941–1945 does cover the campaign in some detail, although he obviously based large sections of it on the post-war histories compiled for the US Army. You don't have to buy any books, but most everything is available through Inter-Library Loan if you're in the US. Check with your nearest public library for details. Be advised that some libraries charge a small fee.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 05:15, 3 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That is not Raus's memoir which was referenced in this article (the one references is listed in the bibliography, and is a collection of essays). In regards to Erickson's account, I guess that is troubling (I don't have any way of verifying either way, at this point). I don't have a library card and so the inter-loan library system is out of the question. The nomination for this article will be withdrawn, and maybe I'll pick it up later if I ever get my hands on Glantz' book. JonCatalán^(Talk) 06:14, 3 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I was trying to give you another book by Raus to consult. I hope that you can get a library card soon; I'd find it impossible to afford all the specialist references I need for FA and A-class articles without ILL.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 04:14, 4 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.