Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Frank Klepacki/archive 1

Frank Klepacki

Self-nomination. This article has gone from zero to hero. I've used all material available at Klepacki's website to create the biography and have contacted him to clear up cloudy points on his history. There are only a handful of fair-use images, and I've made a significant effort to write encyclopedic prose. Two of his solo albums are still stubs, as I'm totally exhausted. This is my third FA nomination, and I'm eager to improve my skills by responding to comments. As usual, any objections will be dealt with swiftly and zealously. Thanks for reviewing. --Zeality 21:32, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

• Comment — It seems to cover the subject well and the image licensing is sufficient, but the prose could use some tightening up throughout. I don't think it's quite to the "brilliant" stage yet. You might need to get an outside editor to perform a copyedit for you. There seems to be a tendency to use more complex wording when more simple wording would suffice. Ex: "To define the style of the soundtrack, Klepacki listened to a multitude of bands at the meeting". "Multitude" is just a little too "out there", if that makes sense. "A number" would sound a little more down to earth. Another one that seemed a little rough to me was "While laboring on the soundtrack,...".

There's also several other random issues, such as the overuse of the word "moody", and some awkward wording like "...Klepacki composed songs in waves...", "...and noted he had seemingly spent his entire life grooming his abilities for that moment" ("felt" would work better than "noted"), and "On average, it takes a few days for Frank Klepacki to compose master a single a song." I think there was a typo in that last one, but even without the extra "a", it seems a little awkward still.

Also, I think this sentence would sound better using "his personal favorite" instead: "Klepacki then composed Fogger and the personal favorite Mud before...". By the way, did you intend for an "and" to appear in this one?: "He received his first drumset at age 8 began performing professionally by age 11."

By the way, the Command and Conquer series section shouldn't necessarily assume that the reader has already read the previous section. The reference to the meeting there is unnecessary.

Anyway, the information in here is good, and the wording isn't awful. It just needs to be tightened up a little and it will be ready. By the way, the second sentence of the lead would work best as "He is best known...". Ryu Kaze 23:33, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm terrible at soliciting help, so tomorrow I'm going to possibly do a round of hardcopy editing. --Zeality 01:05, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Hm. Well, I'd copyedit it myself if I had time to at the moment. Sorry about that. I hope you'll be able to find some people who can give you a hand. Good luck. Ryu Kaze 02:45, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

By the way, again, it is really well done. It just needs that final process of tightening it up. Ryu Kaze 02:46, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

I sent out some invitations; thanks. I'll fix those and try importing the article (without references) into word to change my perspective. Hopefully this will be the first CVG game developer featured article (already first A-class!) --Zeality 15:38, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I've spent about two and a half hours copyediting. Deckiller helped out a little too. Can't underestimate the value of taking that sucker out of the Wikipedia context for review. If the prose is still not up to snuff, it's up to my compadres or my a Rock Lee work ethic to fix it this time. On an unrelated note, I had to fight adding a fourth sample. A clip of his work with Mo Friction is hot. Carry on. --Zeality 01:36, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, I'm satifised. Well done. Ryu Kaze 02:20, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

• Support — As noted above, the subject is covered well and image licensing is sufficient. The prose now satisfies my concerns, and I can support. Ryu Kaze 02:20, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. I can only improve with constructive criticism. I can't wait to help with Final Fantasy IV. --Zeality 02:23, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

• Comment: the lead doesn't do the article justice, I suggest another paragraph or two. - Tutmosis 00:23, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

I added a note about his affiliation with Westwood and Red Alert. I also wrote another paragraph to highlight his solo / band work. --Zeality 01:36, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

• Comment: The only thing I can think of is to change the "Command & Conquer series" header to a sub header of "Early Life/Career" and perhaps do something about the "Later Games" header. As Ryu mentioned above, each section should read independant of one another. Right now the prose for each section "Early Life/Career","Command & Conquer series", and "Later Games" flow into each other. I'd say, think about how to divide his career up(Westwood Games, After Westwood, Solo Works, Band Collaborations) into independant sections and make sure each section keeps only that part of his career in mind.

I assessed this article an A-class article and I would support this article for FA, but I'm a fan who knows a lot about his work. Before this hits FA status, we need editors who don't know anything about him to review it to make sure there isn't anything overlooked or unexplained. Mitaphane _talk 04:48, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

I've edited the first sentence of each section to break the flow from the preceding one. The paragraphs should be self-sufficient. I also moved C&C to a subheader. Thanks for the commentary --Zeality 15:31, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

• Strong Object (Referencing concern now diminished.) Comment. Too many references are to the subject's own web site (I'm going to estimate over 50%). Additionally, those references all point to the home page of that web site. I don't care if that's because of a Flash interface. The referencing issue is actionable, unless references are not sufficiently available, which suggests notability and verifiability issues which indirectly would make featured status difficult for this article. References 26 and 27 are blank. Outriggr 10:34, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
  • I just took a look at the website in question. It does appear to be a flash interface. However, Zeality has provided the section name for where the information may be found on the website in each reference. Given the circumstances, that's really the best he could do. Honestly, I don't see why such a set up is worse than citing a magazine as a reference and saying what page to find the cited information on. These web references are still infinitely more accessible, unless there are web copies of the magazine article.

As for notability, I think I'll field this one for Zeality. The notability of this guy really speaks for itself. He's the composer of the Command & Conquer series, which has shown up in the Guiness Book of World Records several times as the best-selling computer strategy game series of all time[1] and has sold more than 23 million copies[2] (some report as many as 35 million,[3] but I've not seen confirmation of this for myself). I've never even actually played a Command & Conquer title, but this sort of thing is well known among the video game community. Ryu Kaze 13:06, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Those reference blanks have been fixed. Examine certain CVG articles, like Chrono Cross. Roughly half the references come from the topic (the game) itself. There's no way avoiding it; most of Frank Klepacki's information is hosted at his website. The percentage could be cut down if certain interviews were available at their original URLs, but a lot of them have disappeared, prompting Klepacki to archive them on his website. In the event something could not be found, I had to reference the "Press" portion of his site where these articles are stored. As for the flash interface issue, his website is mostly static—the layout hasn't changed in three years, and information stays put save for the news page. The only way to find individual articles with one click from WP would be to take .html files that pop up in my browser's cache and host them somewhere. But that's probably illegal and it's also unwarranted since Klepacki is an archivist.

If there's a POV problem concerning information imported from his website, it can be compared to other biography articles drawing information from autobiographies. In Klepacki's case, he hasn't done anything heinous or evil, and his occupation is not a controversial one. This leaves no real "criticism" of the man. The information taken from his website his mostly historical as well. We're only interested in things like a.) when he composed certain songs, b.) years active for his bands, c.) awards he won, d.) video games he's scored, etc. Aside from the work / beliefs section, which is included because he's speaking about his music (which is what makes him notable), I've omitted opinions on certain things found in his interviews—like the fact that he had a blast doing cameos, or had fun playing Renegade, or that he had to beg Joseph D. Kucan to come to a show. What IS included is all factual information, and Klepacki has little reason to lie to trump up his reputation. I don't believe this would be a POV problem. If there's a WP:POLICY on number of references from one source, perhaps the references to his video game composition list page could be changed to the video games themselves on a case by case basis. But that's sort of nitpicking. --Zeality 15:19, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for the well-reasoned comments! I just have great difficulty with the notion of a biographical featured article that uses the person's web site heavily as a source. To me, whatever one's interpretation of Wikipedia:Reliable sources on this matter (you'll have yours and I mine, of course!), it's not good precedent for the featured article standard. Outriggr 06:23, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, let's count. There are 38 references. There are 17 from Klepacki's site. Two of those are interviews originally hosted elsewhere, so I can link them in the {{citeweb}} and use the archive= tag to reference Klepacki's site or, if I can find a Wayback machine URL, I'll use that. Aboutme could be changed to the MobyGames rap sheet or reviews of Home Cookin' / The Bitters website to substantiate his involvement in video game music and outside projects. I AM has not website, but the Home Cookin' website on the internet archive / review of their CD can be used as a reference for that, and the Bitters do have a site, so down two more. Most of the rest is COMMENTARY:, which are of integral importance to the article. With no other information available on the development of Command & Conquer or Star Wars: Empire at War, his historical notes are the only source. But if we substitute the things above, it'll put the total count at 40 references with 12 coming from Klepacki's website. Sound better? I'll get on it. --Zeality 13:07, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I've pulled it off with two stipulations:

• There is no mention of the film "Unreel Invasion" anywhere on the internet or Cinevegas's archives, so I had to use the aboutme portion again down there.
• Klepacki does not cite the exact name of the local awards for Home Cookin', so I had to use the homecookin reference from his site there. Nonetheless, I hit a veritable goldmine with Las Vegas Weekly and was able to add over three new references for Home Cookin' across the article to mitigate the problem.

There are now 45 references, 14 13 of them coming from his website. --Zeality 14:58, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I think this is much better Zeality so I shall withdraw my objection. As for supporting, I haven't got that far yet. :-) Good work, Outriggr 20:17, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks; I'll keep this in mind with other articles. --Zeality 20:21, 28 August 2006 (UTC)