Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Frank Black

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article review. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted 06:16, 31 January 2007.

Frank Black edit

An article about the frontman of the Pixies - I feel the article is comprehensive on the subject, with a detailed lead section, biography and musical style section. I've been working on this for a few weeks, and I feel it meets the criteria. CloudNine 14:57, 2 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. ~~'Vocals' sub-section in 'Musical style' section is too short. Consider merging with the introduction of 'Musical style' section. I don't think the subsection '"Los Angeles" video'.~~Otherwise looks very good. — Wackymacs 14:01, 3 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment addressed - made suggested changes. CloudNine 14:13, 3 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Support - fits the criteria. Good work! — Wackymacs 14:31, 3 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

~~Haven't read, but will say that the "samples" section is clearly unwarranted on it's own. It should be integrated in the rest of the article.Circeus 18:44, 5 January 2007 (UTC)~~[reply]

Samples are already included throughout the article. I see the samples section as a way for the reader to see Black's career easily, rather than have to go through the whole text to find samples of his music. CloudNine 19:04, 5 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If you can't specifically justify every single of these samples via related text, they represent as many violations of the Fair use policy, and an even greater reason to strongly oppose the accession of this article to featured status.Circeus 19:42, 5 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

~~The use of them is already justified in the text - "Velvety" and "Headache" are given criticism in the text, along with "Debaser" and "U-Mass". CloudNine 19:51, 5 January 2007 (UTC)~~[reply]

~~As far as I am concerned, you have denied my argument, instead of even trying to adress it.Circeus 20:18, 21 January 2007 (UTC)~~[reply]

Your argument is that I haven't justified the use of these samples via related text. I have, in the article's main prose - see the Biography section. Along with other band FAs, including Pixies, it's fine to gather already-criticised samples into a samples section at the bottom of the text. If that doesn't address your argument, I'm struggling to understand what I'm failing to do here. CloudNine 21:51, 21 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Scratch all that. I've just made a complete asshole and idiot of myself. It's likely a careful reading could reveal plenty stuff that needs tweaking (I have an habit of it), but this is definitely not one, and I don't think it's a good idea for me to comment further on this nom.Circeus 23:00, 21 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - You probably don't need the citations for basic facts in the first paragraph, such as his birthdate and that he's performed under the name Black Francis. The lead section covers stuff that should already be addressed and cited in the body of the article, and plus the referece material provided would be sufficiently consistent (like crediting him as "Black Francis" on every single set of Pixies liner notes) that you wouldn't need an inline cite anyways. WesleyDodds 03:10, 9 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Also, Early years and college could be one section since both sections cover the period of his life before he became a notable subject without any real need to distinguish them into two separate parts. I feel the influences section could detail a bit more, and emphasize the bigger influences on his music as opposed to the breadth of them. For one, I've skimmed that Oral History of the Pixies book and it seems like Husker Du is one of his biggest influences, but they don't receive a mention here aside from the flyer he posted that got Kim Deal in the band. The last sentence in the biography seems a bit weak; as opposed to saying he's married now and lives in a particular place, note when he was married and when he moved to his current home where appropriate in the article. And one last little bit of possible relevance: was the main character in the TV show Millenium named after Frank Black? WesleyDodds

Thanks for the comments. I've merged early years and college together. I'll get to work on the influences section - I'm not sure Husker Du is that large an influence on him - I wasn't able to find much in Fool the World. In terms of Black's location, I found that he moved to Portland after Show Me Your Tears, but that isn't Eugene. Same trouble with his wife - I'll keep looking however. I did note that the TV series character is named after Black in the disambig though. CloudNine 19:51, 9 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comments addressed - I believe I've addressed the comments as far as I can. I can't find much on Husker Du in terms of Black's influences, and I've got no chronological info to the move to Eugene or his wife. CloudNine 18:06, 13 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't really have any objects now, so I'm voting Support. WesleyDodds 10:52, 17 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comprehensive, well written, cited, & illustrated. + Ceoil 18:59, 21 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
~~Weak~~ support my only real concern is the sound samples. They are better off worked into the actual text of the article rather than clustered at the end. This is because we are using excerpts under fair use, which requires encyclopedic use - i.e. listening to the sample informs the reader of something. Whatever that something is should be implicit from reading the text (because the song and album in question is placed in historical context). Placing the samples at the end of the article undermines their encyclopedic usefulness. I still think they're better off only being in the text and not in the section at the end, but whatever... Tuf-Kat 02:38, 24 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comments addressed - The sound samples are integrated into the text. Please read the striked-out conversation above between myself and Circeus. CloudNine 07:46, 24 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I confirm that. The list at the bottom is of samples already implemented earlier. Make a text search for "sample"Circeus 18:04, 24 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If it can help, compare Pixies, which has the same structure, and the following, all of which have "samples" section that have not been worked in the text: Marilyn Manson (band), Nirvana (band), Pink Floyd, The Supremes and The Temptations. All of these are featured articles, so this case here is a pretty good compromise between "easy to locate list of the samples used" (which you did in Salsa music and Music of the lesser Antilles via sample boxes instead, and I'll be the devil's advocate in observing that these samples are not integrated within the article) and "samples integrated within the article."Circeus 05:24, 25 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

By "integrated into the article", I only mean "in a section not specifically devoted to sound samples". Thus, music of the Lesser Antilles and salsa music are both "integrated into the article". I don't mean using the little icons within the actual text, which I think is disruptive and unwieldy, I just mean putting them in a box within the relevant section, rather than a section just for sound samples. Tuf-Kat 17:50, 27 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Support, seems to meet the criteria. I would prefer the notes and references to be separated and the Musical style section is weaker than the rest of the article, but it's still very good. Trebor 13:04, 27 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Support I feel that it meets the FA criteria and is well written and comprehensive. Darth griz⁹⁸ 00:41, 29 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article review. No further edits should be made to this page.