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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Cyberpunk/archive2

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Cyberpunk edit

Self-nom, though I'm not too emotionally invested in it. ;) This article was nominated to FAC several months ago, and back then everyone including myself voted against it. I think the intervening edits, by myself and others, have addressed our objections pretty well. I put the article up for peer review, and the only comment it gathered was about fair use rationales for the images, which I researched and provided. Overall, I think the article is useful and not too fannish; if people raise good solid objections, I won't be too dismayed. Anville 11:11, 11 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

  • Neutral for now, but the paragraph on the #Protagonist is fannish and a bit naive to literary terminology, and there is a little wiki-itis shown in all the agglutination of "types of this, types of that, types of the other" appended to it. ("Wiki-itis" is when "anyone can edit" means that people start appending examples rather than developing discussion. It's the infamous "Famous comedies" stuck into the middle of Comedy.) Also, it's interesting that the rationale for the adoption of "punk" isn't included anywhere. It only deserves a sentence, but the early practitioners picked up the sole universal of punkrock: anti-corporate sentiment. There seems, withal, to be a lot of appeasement of various editors with special interests, and there isn't a strong thesis that orders all the information. Geogre 13:57, 11 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. I haven't been involved in this article (although I did just make a minor edit.) I'm not sure what Geogre's complaint is in reference to; perhaps it has been fixed up after he made his remarks? In any case, this seems to be a very well-written article, admirably organized. I'm not sure if Geogre is correct in his assesment that the "punk" in cyberpunk implies an "anti-corporate" sentiment -- indeed, many of cyberpunks early fans and writers had strongly libertarian leanings AFAIK. Again, AFAIK, the word "punk" was chosen mostly for its suggestion of abrasiveness and rebellion against the then-current utopianism of science fiction -- i.e., the "punk" of cyberpunk referred mostly to the writers themselves, who saw themselves as "punks" in contrast to establishment writers. I don't think discussion of this point needs to appear in the article, partly because it is just speculation, and also because the actual politics of cyberpunk are admirably addressed in an NPOV manner. Sdedeo 21:10, 11 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I did try to clean up the "protagonist" paragraph, as per Geogre's remarks. (And thanks for your edit!) Anville 08:11, 12 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Object. First off, I just want to say I think this is a very good choice for an FAC. It's an article that represents modern pop culture very well. However, it has some problems:
    • The lead is much too short for such a big article.
    • Small paragraphs and very long quotes make it harder to read. The paragraphs need to be looked over and the quotes need to be summarized and then italicized so they are easily distinguished from the text. Most of these quotes can be summarized by the editors.
    • Merge all the information about cyberpunk in games, movies, music fashion etc. One section with sub-section should do.
    • If possible, I would like a picture to go right at the top next to the lead. No squabbling about which pic it should be, though. Consensus and compromise is the way to go.
  • I'll help out with this, so don't despair. / --Peter Isotalo 13:54, 13 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Glad to see another brain getting involved here. I think you've raised some pretty good points, and I'll take stabs at addressing them. Of the pictures currently in the article, I personally think Image:Lain-hacker-small.jpg would go best with the lead, but Image:Ghostintheshell.jpg is pretty good too. Hmmm, Image:TrinityMatrixCharacter.jpg might go well alongside Nicola Nixon's comment about "gender politics" (which we can paraphrase). Maybe someone can dig up a sexy still of Major Motoko Kusanagi to complement it? Anville 16:59, 13 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I'd prefer images of female characters that focus on something other than sexy appearance. / Peter Isotalo 12:24, 15 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, I agree! However, the sex appeal of cyberpunk heroines is a subject of legitimate scholarly interest — at least two of the sources the article cites right now (Nixon and Brians) comment on it. I didn't mean to say that we should dress up the article to appeal to the teenage male demographic, but rather that we could easily find fair-use pictures which illustrate a point made in several of our sources. The idea is that somebody sees a picture of Trinity and a picture of Kusanagi, and then they read Gibson's description of Molly the razorgirl, and they ask themselves, "Why are all the cyberpunk women like that?" My apologies for miscommunications. Anville 15:35, 15 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Book cover of Neuromancer plz. I note we have a reprint cover up already on that article, what were earlier ones like? Sticking Lain as head image would be like illustrating an article on Restoration comedy with a pic of Sheridan. --zippedmartin 14:36, 15 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I have a copy of Neuromancer with (what I think is) the original cover. I can take a photo and upload it, would that be acceptable? I also have many of Mr. Gibson's other books, if photos need be taken of them. [[User:Premeditated Chaos|User:Premeditated Chaos/Sig]] 20:59, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
That would be great. Anville 09:04, 19 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm...would a scan be better quality than a photo? I'm not particularly experienced with these things. I'll scan/photograph the covers of a few other cyberpunk books as well. [[User:Premeditated Chaos|User:Premeditated Chaos/Sig]] 02:07, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
Scan probably preferable. If needed, google should help you find various guides that might be of use. Then see Wikipedia:Image use policy for the wikip side of things (most of which you no doubt know, {{Book cover}} is what you'll want). --zippedmartin 18:24, 22 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Check out the best picture I've found so far. (Ha ha only serious.) Anville 15:41, 15 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Support Just great. --PopUpPirate 11:57, 15 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

  • Neutral. I've read this a couple of times now, and have a feeling of vauge disquiet about the structure and tone of the article as a whole, but am having trouble thinking of how I could actually go about fixing that. First off, I think the back-links to detective fiction and the New Wave movement really need to be mentioned in the head (as well as further down where they are now). Then the head puts Blade Runner (1982) and The Matrix (1999) in the same breath, which is more than slightly confusing, and this kinda chronological soup continues through the article - read the current games section for instance. Everthing feels rather tick-listy rather than discursive, I think more effort needs to be made to bring all these different strands together in a sensible manner. Finally, anime coverage jumps straight in at Kōkaku Kidōtai in 1995 (with the no mention of the manga), cyberpunk had a big influence on the OVAs of the 80s from AIC, Madhouse etc and that needs to get a footnote somewhere. The Encyc. of Science Fiction has a good 3 columns on cyberpunk, I'll check through later see if it has anything fun that the current article lacks. --zippedmartin 17:15, 17 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'm responsible for the Blade Runner/Matrix bunching, but the point I was trying to make here is to list two of the most popular cyberpunk-influenced films out there. They're there because they're very popular and have most likely reached a far wider audience than any other film, book or game out there. If you have better candidates, just add them. I've tried looking the article over and done what I can when it comes to copyediting, but I'm a bit stuck when it comes to section 3 and onwards, so please don't hesitate to butt in and try to touch stuff up. / Peter Isotalo 16:23, 24 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that both those films were important in popularising this sorta scifi, I just think that mixing something that was made before the word 'cyberpunk' was ever thought of, and something that used elements when the idea had already been part of the mainstream for ten years is somewhat confusing for a casual reader. Anyway, I have a revision of the film/tv section I'll get round to finishing/saving this evening. Probably. :D --zippedmartin 22:18, 26 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reluctant Object - Damn - I so very much wanted to support this article. The lead section and the first two sections, Style and History, are simply brilliant (although the history is incomplete; zippedmartin's explanation above cover's this). Also, the Literature and Film and TV sections seem too short to me. Please expand. --mav
  • Strong Support --- This is better than some featured articles, deserves to be in. Ruennsheng 02:30 (UTC)
  • Would like to support, but a few issues remain:
    • "While this gritty, hard-bitten style was hailed as revolutionary during cyberpunk's early days, later observers concluded that, literarily speaking, most cyberpunk narrative techniques were less innovative than those of the New Wave, twenty years earlier. Primary exponents of the field include William Gibson, Bruce Sterling, John Shirley and Rudy Rucker. The term became widespread in the 1980s and remains current today." - confused... are we talking about the primary exponents of New Wave or Cyberpunk literature?
    • "Witness the series 8 Man (1963), about a human-turned-cyborg who fights an endless struggle against his lawless world." - witness the series?! Copyedit this, please!!!
    • "(One can always aggrandize the cyberpunk genre by retroactively "claiming" earlier works to be members, or at least vital precursors; consider The Six Million Dollar Man or Fritz Lang's Metropolis. Indeed, one could even aggrandize postcyberpunk, by laying claim to optimistic fantasies like Tron.)" - reads like an essay, seems to be someone waxing lyrical about their favourite topic (sorry if that is you)... needs to be less POV.
    • "Indeed, this focus upon the social impact of network technology has led some commentators to feel that the television series leans more toward being a product of the postcyberpunk period." - which commentators?
    • "While the first movie was extremely successful, earning $456 million worldwide and beating Star Wars: The Phantom Menace for special-effects Oscars, viewers continue to debate the quality of the sequels." - can we have some expansion on why they are debating this?
    • Lastly, we have numbered references, only there is no corresponding notes section! Please number the references in the right order... - 211.30.179.151 12:38, 29 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
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