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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Cave Story/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose 12:08, 6 July 2012 [1].

Cave Story edit

Cave Story (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Toolbox
Nominator(s): Axem Titanium (talk) 17:35, 10 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think Cave Story, the indie platformer that took the internet by storm, is ready to be a featured article. It just passed GA, a process which embiggened several sections of the article. I believe the article succinctly captures what makes this game special, so come at me, reviewers! :) Axem Titanium (talk) 17:35, 10 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note Transcluded at this timestamp. Graham Colm (talk) 19:19, 20 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I would love to review this article. I played this game a few months ago and loved it. L1ght5h0w (talk) 19:21, 10 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by L1ght5h0w (talk) 17:43, 14 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I've only reviewed one other article so far, so I'm still trying to find a good way to get my comments written down so they are in a nice and easy to read format, so please bear with me. I think I'm going to go by section.
Plot
Storyline
1. The following sentence is a bit long, if you ask me: "Two of the Doctor's servants, Misery and Balrog, are looking for Sue Sakamoto, a girl who had been transformed into a Mimiga, but mistakenly abduct Toroko, another Mimiga, instead."
Split the sentence. Axem Titanium (talk) 19:36, 19 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
2. Also, I believe abduct should be abducted.
Plot sections are in the present tense. Axem Titanium (talk) 19:36, 19 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
3. Following this sentence, the article states the player finds Sue in the the Egg Corridor, but makes no mention of the player going to look for Sue, or why the player looks for her.
It's not so much that you go looking for her, so much as that the Egg Corridor is the only place to go and you happen to find her there. Axem Titanium (talk) 19:36, 19 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
4. In that same part, it mentions she finds an egg of a Sky Dragon that could allow her to escape the island. It just seems to me like part of the story is missing there.
Clarified backstory. Axem Titanium (talk) 19:36, 19 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe I'm just looking in the wrong places, but could you specify where/how you clarified the problem?L1ght5h0w (talk) 21:26, 19 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
In the Setting section, I mention that the research team has become stranded on the floating island, hence the need for a Sky Dragon to escape. Axem Titanium (talk) 22:33, 19 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I see now. Thank you for clarifying. L1ght5h0w (talk) 17:16, 20 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
5. It goes on to say that Sue attempts to rescue her brother. Who is her brother? Why is he on the island? And when did Toroko get kidnapped?
Clarified backstory. Also, Toroko got kidnapped when it says she was abducted. Axem Titanium (talk) 19:36, 19 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I completely missed the part that said Toroko got kidnapped. However, after you split that sentence and I read it again, it was much easier to find. L1ght5h0w (talk) 21:26, 19 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
6. "Balrog steals the key to the storehouse where the red flowers are kept from Jenka." It seems like another bit of the story is missing between where Jenka tells the player they are a "surface warrior" and this sentence, like how we find out about the red flowers being in the storehouse, and the existence of the storehouse/key.
Fixed. Axem Titanium (talk) 19:36, 19 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Please see "More comments" below. L1ght5h0w (talk) 21:28, 19 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
7. "... and that they were not the killer robots who slaughtered Mimigas in the past." Where/how did we learn about the killer robots? They have not been mentioned before.
Clarified backstory. Axem Titanium (talk) 19:36, 19 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Reception
8. "EGM stated that ..." I believe you need to spell out Electronic Gaming Monthly, and then optionally have (EGM) following it, like this: "Electronic Gaming Monthly (EGM)".
Done. Axem Titanium (talk) 19:36, 19 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Other things
I found multiple wikilinks to the following:
  • Metroid
  • Castlevania
  • Nintendo Power
In the case of the Nintendo Power, there is one in the lead section and two in the Reception section. I believe according to the MoS it is acceptable to have one link to something in the lead, and then one more link to it somewhere else in the article.
Done. Axem Titanium (talk) 19:36, 19 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Please correct me on anything if I'm wrong. L1ght5h0w (talk) 17:43, 14 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, finals period snuck up on me. I'll be free to work on the article in a few days. Axem Titanium (talk) 18:04, 14 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
No problem L1ght5h0w (talk) 13:03, 15 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I made the changes you asked. Axem Titanium (talk) 19:36, 19 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

More comments by L1ght5h0w (talk) 21:26, 19 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

After re-reading this section:
  • "Booster sends the player to the Sand Zone to destroy the red flowers before the Doctor can find them. While there, the player meets Curly Brace, a female robot who also has no memories of her past, and Jenka, an old witch who is Misery's mother and guardian of the red flowers. Jenka calls the player character a "soldier from the surface", one of many who were sent to the island to slaughter the Mimigas. Balrog steals the key to the storehouse where the red flowers are kept from Jenka. The Doctor forces Toroko to eat a red flower as a test, but King arrives to try to stop him and is killed in the process. The player is forced to kill Toroko, who has gone into a murderous rage as a result of the flowers."
A few things are hard for me to determine:
  • If Jenka is the guardian of the red flowers, why are "the red flowers [kept] from Jenka"? It seems like if Jenka is the guardian, she should have access to them. But the way the sentence reads, it seems the flowers are locked away from Jenka, and not that Jenka locked them away to "guard" them.
  • Regarding the storehouse again, does the player just figure out that the flowers are in them? Or does someone tell them? Not necessarily suggesting a change here, I just would like to know.
  • I think Jenka tells you at some point but the player's moment-to-moment motivations aren't super important, imo, since he doesn't speak. Axem Titanium (talk) 22:33, 19 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • How did King die?
  • It's not clear if Misery or the Doctor fired the lightning bolt so I left it vague. Axem Titanium (talk) 22:33, 19 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Did the Doctor recover any of the red flowers? Or did the player destroy them?
Thanks for clarifying these things. Now, how do I support this... L1ght5h0w (talk) 17:16, 20 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. It should be noted that I have only checked for copy editing mistakes and some confusion pertaining to the story line. I have read the entire article and have found no more items needing copy edit attention. With that said, some may still exist that I did not catch.
Going back and checking the criteria, I believe the article meets all criteria except possibly 1(c). I could be wrong though. Also, I apologize for editing this page 10 thousand (and 2) times. L1ght5h0w (talk) 17:25, 20 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the support. What aspect do you feel is missing with respect to 1c? Is there a section which is weak on referencing? Axem Titanium (talk) 18:38, 20 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The story part, but after thinking about it, there really may not be a better way to reference it than quotes from the game itself (which you have done). L1ght5h0w (talk) 14:37, 22 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Alright. Thanks for clarifying. Axem Titanium (talk) 18:19, 22 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: Great work so far, but a few things:
  • From lede: "After its initial release on the Internet, Cave Story slowly gained popularity as an indie game." Awkwardly worded - this could be interpreted as: the game, despite not being an indie game, gained popularity as one, or, It gained popularity because it was an indie game. You should just categorise it as an indie game, and then say it gained in popularity - not "as an indie game".
  • From Gameplay: "pressing down on the control pad." Overly specific? You don't give specific controls for other abilities (i.e., weapon-use). MasterOfHisOwnDomain (talk) 19:56, 20 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Both fixed, I think. How do you feel about the wording now? Axem Titanium (talk) 18:19, 22 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Improved. Good luck with the nomination. MasterOfHisOwnDomain (talk) 18:33, 22 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Images: File:Cavestory.png has a rather weak rationale. It's not quite clear what element of gameplay needs to be illustrated, as such. It's not like there's extensive discussion of the healthbars or anything, while the graphics are well-indicated by the lead image. Unless there's a stronger reason for this to be there, I think it should probably be removed. If it is kept, a size reduction would probably be useful. The other two images are fine. J Milburn (talk) 19:14, 21 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I replaced the image with a more interesting/illustrative one. The new one depicts more gameplay systems. Axem Titanium (talk) 18:19, 22 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Yep, better. J Milburn (talk) 15:37, 29 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - spotchecks not done. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:26, 22 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Dead links need to be addressed
    • The peer review tool didn't find any. Which ones are you referring to? Axem Titanium (talk) 19:09, 22 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      • There's still one tagged as such, so if it's fixed the tag should be removed. Nikkimaria (talk) 17:50, 30 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
        • I removed it since it didn't add much and I couldn't find an archivelink. Axem Titanium (talk) 18:45, 1 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • What makes this a high-quality reliable source? This? This? This? This? This?
    • Destructoid author is Jonathan Holmes, an associate editor on the site and therefore subject to editorial review, unlike the user-blogs on that site.. 2nd source was an archive of the original but I found a better archive on archive.org. 3rd was removed. I replaced one GoNintendo ref with Tiny Cartridge and the other two are primary sources (a press release and an interview). Siliconera is an interview, which is fine per WP:VG/S. Tiny Cartridge is also interviews. Axem Titanium (talk) 19:09, 22 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      • What is Destructoid's process for editorial review? VG/S doesn't provide any evidence in support of Siliconera. What makes Tiny Cartridge reliable? Nikkimaria (talk) 17:50, 30 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
        • Per discussion at WT:VG/S, Destructoid staff writers are reliable for their own opinions and interviews are primary sources, so unless there is doubt about whether the interview happened or not, they can be accepted as such. This rationale also applies to Siliconera (mentioned in the notes under situational sources at VG/S) and Tiny Cartridge. Axem Titanium (talk) 18:45, 1 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Some titles use hyphens where they should use dashes
  • FN23: publisher?
  • Check wikilinking for consistency
    • I assume you mean in the publisher field of citations. Removed all wikilinks. Axem Titanium (talk) 19:09, 22 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Publications should be italicized. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:26, 22 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Not comprehensive. The reception section does not offer any response on Cave Story+. I would remove Gamerankings from the review box (it's largely the same as metacritic), and include a metacritic line for Cave Story+. I would append some thoughts on Cave Story+ after the PC reception paragraph.
You also need to tidy up the reviews table. Why include the Edge score if you never actually refer to that review in the prose? You reference two IGN reviews in the prose, yet only show one score in the review box. That score does not indicate which version it is for, neither do any of the others. They should make it clear, as they're not always the same. - hahnchen 22:09, 23 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure if this is an actionable objection. Cave Story Plus, as noted in the article, is basically a PC/Mac port of the WiiWare version (with one new level) and was not reviewed by any of the major game review websites or magazines as a separate game. Metacritic only lists 6 reviews for it which is hardly a "critical consensus", compared to the 25+ reviews for the WiiWare and 3DS versions. Also, the PC Gamer (the only notable review site of the six, as far as I can tell) review seems to have dropped off the face of the internet. That said, I added dual reviews for all listed websites into the review table to illustrate the difference in score the sites gave to each version. I included the Edge review to provide a proper balance of US/European reviews and print/online reviews, but I can't expand upon it since I don't have access to the physical magazine in question. Axem Titanium (talk) 07:02, 24 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I can understand why you didn't want to include a Metacritic score with only 6 components. I don't know the scope of the extra level, so didn't know how big of a deal it was - sometimes people use level and chapter interchangeably. You do have access to the Edge review as part of Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games/Reference library/Edge, User:X201 & User:Steve should have that issue. I know for a fact that I have it, but I won't have access to my collection for at least 2 weeks. I generally don't think you should list reviews in the box which you don't reference elsewhere - but that's not a dealbreaker. The biggest issue though regarding balance, is that this is a Japanese game through and through, and you have no Japanese reception. - hahnchen 19:33, 24 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I was looking around for Famitsu scores and I realized something: Cave Story 3D hasn't come out yet in Japan. The indie game scene in Japan is completely different from America/Europe in that it's mostly dōjin soft, which has dubious copyright status, hence why most game review magazines and websites in Japan won't review dojin games as a general rule. That's why you won't find any WP:RS reviews of the original indie PC release. Cave Story 3D is the first "buy it in a brick and mortar store" retail release of the game, so it will most likely get a Famitsu/Dengeki/etc. score which I will find as soon as it is available. I will contact X201 and/or Steve about Edge. Axem Titanium (talk) 19:56, 24 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's note: I believe I've addressed Hahnchen's objection but the user has not edited consistently since May 27. I will continue to try getting a response. The Edge review has been incorporated, btw. Axem Titanium (talk) 14:08, 18 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
@hahnchen: Generally both the Metacritic and the Gamerankings are left in because they use two different metrics and can occasionally come up with two very different results. Removing Gamerankings would put this article out of step with most other video game articles. This is also Sven Manguard 14:24, 19 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
In this particular case, I think almost every review listed by GR is also in the MC aggregate, and the very few that aren't are NN publications anyway. Do you have any comments about the rest of the article/prose/etc.? Axem Titanium (talk) 15:04, 19 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Nope, I don't. This is also Sven Manguard 18:44, 21 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough, would you consider supporting the article in that case? Axem Titanium (talk) 19:54, 21 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • A great article, and as the issues above were adressed, I give it my Support. --Khanassassin ☪ 19:24, 1 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments (prose only) from Noleander -

  • "The player character awakens in a cave with no memory ..." - does the player character ever get a name or not? If not, should probably say so.
  • Ambiguous: "If the player saved Curly Brace earlier, the player may find an item to restore her memories..." - Who is "her" referring to? The player or CB?
    • CB is clearly called female earlier in the section. Pronouns are never used to refer to "the player" in order to maintain gender neutrality. Axem Titanium (talk) 17:48, 24 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Name? - Isn't "balrog" the name of the monster in the Lord of the Rings movie? Why is that name used in this game?
    • Yes it is, and I have no idea why that name was chosen for this character. Axem Titanium (talk) 17:48, 24 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Clarify: "worked with Amaya to bring the game to Nintendo's WiiWare service .." - What is the WiiWare service? is it a game that is on DVD that play on the Wii? etc. Reader shouldn't have to click on the link to figure out what WiiWare is. Does the WiiWare version run on Wiis or PCs or ??
  • Terminology: "Amaya quit his day job as a salaryman to become director of Cave Story 3D." - Many readers may not know what "salaryman" means; and "day job" is too informal for an encyclopedia. Change to "quit his job as a software developer to become ..." Also, his new job, if he is working 9-5 and commuting etc may still be a "salaryman".
  • See Also: Has a link to Ikachan, but that is already linked in the article body.
  • Clarify: "At a Game Developers Conference project post-mortem, he emphasized the role of pragmatic design in shaping the game." - That sounds interesting ... can you give more details on what "pragmatic design" means in this context?
    • Rearranged section to make it more obvious what "pragmatic" is referring to. Axem Titanium (talk) 17:48, 24 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ambiguous: "This version contains several .." - Which version? Prior sentences refer to both "original" and "WiiWare" versions.
  • Acronym: " GBA" - needs to be spelled out the first time it is used.
  • Define: "After its initial indie release, ..." - Define "indie" where first used. In general, the article should be understandable (without having to click on too many wikilinks) to readers who have minimal understanding of gaming.
  • Infobox: says "Version 1.0.0.7" - What is that referring to? Arent there multiple versions out there? Freeware? WiiWare? 3DS? Do they all share a single version numbering sequence? Or do they all have independent version numbers?
  • Overall: the article is fine, and doesn't seem to have any big issues. It is a rather focused topic, with few sources, so it is unlikely to have POV or coverage problems. So, prose is the primary thing to address. Leaning towards Support once the above items are addressed.

End Noleander comments. --Noleander (talk) 14:09, 23 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Changed to Support (prose only). No opinion about comprehensiveness. --Noleander (talk) 18:38, 24 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the review and support. Axem Titanium (talk) 22:00, 26 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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