User talk:Tryptofish/Archive 4

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January – February, 2010

FSM Lead + Suggestion

I shaved some more off the lead and got it down to three paragraphs. I think it's good now, but your input would still be helpful.

As you've noted, the talkpage of the Flying Spaghetti Monster is a perennial troll magnet. (And, were the page not semi-protected, the same would be true of the article.) Consequently, I think that we should write an FAQ similar to the one on Talk:Barack Obama. Smaller, of course, but addressing the never-ending "this offends me" and "it's not a parody religion" comments. Is that appropriate?

Thanks, Mnation2 (talk) 03:12, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. A very big "YES" to the FAQ idea! I'm still thinking about shortening the lead, and maybe I'll make some suggestions on the article's talk page. --Tryptofish (talk) 15:49, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

Reaction and a query

More power to you Tryptofish! I do not like bullies either, but likely don't have your written jousting skills to deal with them. I haven’t looked at what has happened at Crucifixion (yet) but from my experience with you (Animal testing talk), I am sure you are fighting the good fight. I saw that the firestorm I inadvertently lit there has finally died out(?). I am starting to come around to your view that editors should be registered, and I'm only an IP(so far)! But being registered, as I'm sure you know far better than me, is no guarantee of editorial ability or conduct. Maybe an IQ, written English and personality test are needed too?
I actually came here to get your opinion on a message some 'editor' has left on my talk page. This is probably outside the Wiki 'dispute resolution' guidelines and I will understand if you don't want to get involved in any way. In fact after 4 months (≈500 article edits) of almost constant Wikipedia activity, I am considering giving it up. As I said, I don’t have good written (or verbal) jousting skills. If you just have a look at the end of my talk you will see the message I am upset about. [1] This is not the first time I have 'encountered' this person, and they often seem a bit abrupt, to say the least. I mean I should be able to make a comment, or query something in an article without being demeaned and belittled, as I see it, by an administrator! If you feel like giving an opinion I would value it, if not, no worries. It's about 8 AM here And I have only had a few hours sleep, (in my computer chair!) a very common event since I became a wikiholic. So I will have to go and try to get some more rest. Ramen! --220.101.28.25 (talk) 21:14, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

Thank you, and replying at your talk. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:43, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the message, much appreciated. Unfortunately I and the other editor tend to edit in similar areas. Just for the record I am an Electronic Technician, ≈20 years experience, have repaired computer memories using ferrite cores & I cannot recall a ferrite ever being called a ceramic (of course I may well be wrong, but for me it wasn't really important). That dreadfully unreliable source (Wikipedia) Ceramic article states "A ceramic is an inorganic, non-metallic solid prepared by the action of heat and subsequent cooling" Ferrite is metallic! (To the best of my knowledge).
Re editor 'shrinkage' this [2] may interest, don't know how true it is. Past 10AM now! Have to get some 'sleep'. "May you be touched by his noodly appendage" --220.101.28.25 (talk) 23:15, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

AIV

Sorry for the implication; I had only been able to review a few edits, and the most recent fell within policy as I said (Also, lately it seems to me we've had an awful lot of spurious or well-meaning reports to AIV of things that really should be taken somewhere else, so maybe that informed my reaction as well). A deep, ongoing issue like this should probably be taken to AN/I where you can explain it in more detail. Daniel Case (talk) 19:01, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Re: Crucifixion in art

Wow, things are getting a bit heated. I have a hunch as to why, but I'd really rather talk this over than let a shitstorm brew. The article was discussed on SA, natch, but to be quite honest it wasn't intended as an attack, or as vandalism, or as anything negative. Some people disagreed in particular with anime's strange prevalence in Wikipedia. Which is fine, in my opinion. People didn't like the way an article was and they edited it. But it wasn't like "let's go screw with those Wikipedia guys" at all. The image in question (that, as of writing, isn't there) didn't even represent a crucifixion; it was simply a cross and would have been better suited to Crosses in art or some such article. Now when I get my DVD back from my friend I can get a fair-use screenshot of Lilith on the cross, which would fit a hell of a lot better (or if you can remember what ep it was from take a shot yourself), but until such time I don't feel the image is necessary. And wouldn't the whole passage on imagery in anime belong under "movies and TV" anyway? Whatever happens happens, I guess, but I'd like to talk about it instead of reverting each other. ZS 04:56, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Hi Ziggy, thank you so much for coming to my talk page and making these helpful remarks, as well as the helpful comments you made at the article talk page (where I've just finished replying before coming back here). I've already discussed there the "Lilith" image, so I won't repeat it here. Well, you sure are right about the "heated" nature of it, that's for sure. As I see it, it's more complicated than what you describe. Some people are, indeed, just bringing a reasonable disagreement about content to the page, and are doing so civilly, and I really have no problem with that. You'll see that I've (with a few human mistakes on my part, to be sure) generally gone out of my way to discuss things constructively with them, as I try to do at all the 300-400 pages on my watch-list. The problem is when people do stuff like this, which is, sadly, not at all atypical of what's been coming my way. There is no reason for me to just go along with that kind of stuff, and I have no intention of doing so. I have every bit as much right to argue, within policy, for what I think content should be, as does any other editor, and some of these people have no sincere desire to contribute constructively to the encyclopedia. The problem is compounded when the constructive and the disruptive editors are all talking at the same time, and I think that's what you just saw. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:24, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

CDA proposal finalisation poll

Thanks for voting. Matt Lewis (talk) 21:47, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

You're very welcome, Matt. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:48, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

I note that the initial part of the discussion now archived at Wikipedia talk:Community de-adminship/Draft RfC Archive 3#Proposed simplification of page structure remains unconcluded. I think there is merit in your suggestion there, although I don't think it is a major issue. I just think we need to be clear prior to going live.

Are you otherwise happy with the Guide, RfC and FAQ?Ben MacDui 20:34, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Sorry if I archived that too soon - I will replace it if you want(?) Matt Lewis (talk) 21:52, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for asking me. Don't worry about that Matt, it's OK. MacDui, yes I guess I basically am. (Q7 of the FAQ will need a link that isn't there yet.) As we agree, I do think the "Guide" and the "main CDA page" should be merged, and I guess I'd like a chance to see that before "going live". Beyond that, I don't think I'm planning any further edits to those pages. It is still not clear to me when we can "go live", given that we will need to decide how to interpret the responses to Matt's poll. Bottom line: don't hurry, get it right. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:37, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Community de-Adminship - finalization poll for the CDA proposal

After tolling up the votes in the revision proposals, it emerged that 5.4 had the most support, but elements of that support remained unclear, and various comments throughout the polls needed consideration.

A finalisation poll (intended, if possible, to be one last poll before finalising the CDA proposal) has been run to;

• gather opinion on the 'consensus margin' (what percentages, if any, have the most support) and

• ascertain whether there is support for a 'two-phase' poll at the eventual RfC (not far off now), where CDA will finally be put to the community. Matt Lewis (talk) 01:35, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Important notice about VOTE 3 in the CDA poll

You are receiving this message as you have voted in VOTE 3 at the Community de-Adminship 'Proposal Finalization' Poll.

It has been pointed out that VOTE 3 was confusing, and that voters have been assuming that the question was about creating an actual two-phase CDA process. The question is merely about having a two-phase poll on CDA at the eventual RfC, where the community will have their vote (eg a "yes/no for CDA” poll, followed a choice of proposal types perhaps).

As I wrote the question, I'll take responsibility for the confusion. It does make sense if read through to the end, but it certainly wasn't as clear as it should have been, or needed to be!

Please amend your vote if appropriate - it seems that many (if not most) people interpreted the question in the way that was not intended.

Regards, Matt Lewis (talk) 15:43, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

new idea

Was it you that started a new heading because I didn't start the new sub-section. Whatever or whoever, it's not important to know.

Remember, you wrote "I think you've actually come up with a variation that no one else has come up with so far, which is really saying something, considering how many different versions we've discussed!"

This option would slightly but temporarily empower non-admins against admins. Non-admins sometimes feel bullied. However, temporary 1 week desysop would be a nuclear option because admins could only suffer this twice a year and still keep the tools 50 weeks of the year. Socks would be useless against admins because of the 2 times a year limit. Furthermore, misuse of the temporary desysoping would result in 1 week blocks. Temporary desysoping is also less severe than blocking because the admin would still be able to edit.

This proposal could reduce drama because abuse of it carries a high price to the user misusing this power (they get blocked). Yet, admins would not want to suffer loss of prestige by being rightfully desysoped for a week (twice a year maximum). In terms of speed in resolving bad admin behavior, this fast procedure could defuse problems quickly unlike the regular process which creates a lot of slow drama. Suomi Finland 2009 (talk) 23:27, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I wrote the comment, but it was someone else who changed the headings. Stuff is happening fast and furious there! My suggestion, and it's nothing more than one person's opinion, is that your idea is really something separate from CDA, and might be best floated separately from it. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:32, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Talkback

Thank you for your Welcome. I have been admiring your contributions and your trophy page. I will seriously consider joining the Wiki fish project. Fishman 51 Fishman 51 (talk) 19:31, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

My pleasure! --Tryptofish (talk) 19:33, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Tag revert

Please do NOT revert quality tags on article, but IMPROVE the article Crucifixion in the arts. Thanks. History2007 (talk) 18:13, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

I have. Have you? --Tryptofish (talk) 18:15, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

I am not to improve the article, but comment on it. It still misses the mark by miles. History2007 (talk) 18:23, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

You say: "I am not to improve the article". That says it all. I've written much of what the article now contains, and worked to improve much of the flawed content added by other editors. Please be careful how you address me. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:29, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

ANI thread

Hi -- you might be amused by a look at WP:ANI#Probios and hoax article strumus. The issue is resolved and doesn't need any action, I just thought it might interest you. Regards, Looie496 (talk) 18:40, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Hi, I'm just glad the thread isn't anything involving me! :-) Isn't "strumus" something one spreads on pita? (bad joke) Anyway, I've been kind of distracted from my more usual editing at neuroscience-related pages by some stuff going on lately at other pages, but I expect I'll be back to it sometime soon. I've seen you've been doing a lot of re-writing of late, and I really ought to go through those pages myself. Best, --Tryptofish (talk) 19:06, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

please check stats to make sure not weezle

Hi Tryptofish,

would you have a look at the last sentence in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_schizophrenia#Hypoxia

I got the odds ratio from table 3; but I am wondering if we are legitimately allowed to interpret a figure like that.

Notpayingthepsychiatrist (talk) 06:30, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Just on this same section, with your doctorate, is there a bit of confusion with the maths. The strikingly elevated risk of 5.75% seems to be calculated from the number of schizophrenics in the NSS group which was selected and matched for a total of 693 NSS and controls, then divided by the whole sample (either 3078 mothers or 4140 births). Surely the selected and matched groups are meant for logistic regression and not an epidemiological risk for the whole population. I am already embarrased, I know I'm wrong somewhere, but when you get time have a look. Notpayingthepsychiatrist (talk) 11:03, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Knew I had something wrong, sorry about that. Notpayingthepsychiatrist (talk) 13:15, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Hi, yes, sure I'll be happy to take a look at that, although I won't be able to get to it right away. --Tryptofish (talk) 16:03, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

everything's ok. I simplified what I wrote in the first question and I realise where I went wrong in my second question Notpayingthepsychiatrist (talk) 19:20, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

OK, good. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:22, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Getting ready to roll

I see you're going through the FAQ too. Once that's done I think it could go live anytime.

To do's - tweak the FAQ and Guide wordings to state that the RfC is live.

Just to let you know - I will be offline from Sunday 31st to Tuesday 2nd. Ben MacDui 21:11, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Please don't start this by 'rolling' it before people like myself, Jehochman etc are happier. Things that start on happy terms have a much better chance of succeeding. Matt Lewis (talk) 21:54, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

I hope I'm not the person who decides when we go live! (said with a smile) In my opinion, we are getting close to being ready, but I basically agree with Matt about not rushing it. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:58, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Discussions that go on for ever have no hope of producing a result. There are numerous things that could be changed, but if they are neither make or break issues, nor have been raised in extensive prior discussions as being of importance, what is the point of spending time on them? There is very little sense of "building a consensus" at present - its just a few people disagreeing with one another. Ben MacDui 09:09, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

As much as I feel your pain, we are in no shape to go ahead yet. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:01, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

And I feel the need to strongly disagree. Ben is in the right of it; we need stop dithering and start moving. The longer you delay the more disruptive some are going to become, as the last 36 hours has shown. Jusdafax 18:33, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

I feel your pain too. (But how did my talk page become discussion central for this?) I, myself, am not delaying. I'm trying to fix the mess, and make good use of what isn't a mess. Please allow me to get back to it. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:38, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

I will of course be watching and continuing to assist where I can, but I have to say that at this point I am wishing I had taken Jusdafax's advice and gone live some time ago. This process is in danger of spinning completely out of control and it looks like it may take considerable patience to fix. Every time I try and analyse what has happened since the previous stable point it has changed yet again! Ben MacDui 20:11, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Actually, I was just about to leave a message on your talk when I got the orange banner here. I've pointed something out about the "nominators" section, which you can see at the bottom of the Guide talk page. If we can agree on that, I think it's basically settled. I'd like to give it 24 hours to sleep on, to check for errors with fresh eyes, and to agree on the global message to everyone's watchlist pages (and probably to revert Matt a few more times), but then, I'd actually be ready to agree to go live. We're almost ready now. :-) --Tryptofish (talk) 20:17, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Come on MacDui - you had (and have) no right to 'go ahead' and do anything, not at any one person's advice - not without consensus. What an astonishingly anti-Wikpedian lack of WP:AGF towards me, from you both I am reading here! When I read these comments I realise how important it was that I stopped a tight group of three people completely running the show. The truly-negative critics were happily waiting for you to do rush a bad CDA through, while the more positive critics were all clearly appalled. You were a consensus of three for crying out loud! IMO, you had no proven (or real) consensus on anything you were running with, and the proposal was so unprofessional as it stood it would have been torn to pieces. The notion of it being a consensus 'text' is a complete myth, however much 'Uncle G' is name-dropped to give it some kind of (slightly weird) weight. Did you guys actually read the Motion to Close? It is a warning with bells on. You have both been clutching the WP:OWN to push this through, admit it. Matt Lewis (talk) 21:05, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

The guidance

1. You state in your edit summary here "it's been extensively and specifically discussed", though you don't link to the discussion. Could you point me in the correct direction, as the wording is odd as is? NJA (t/c) 18:05, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
2. You re-added this, which is fine. However it seems to need tying in with the first paragraph of this section.
3. This. I didn't remove it, but I do wonder what is meant by stale signatures? Either the editor met the 500 edit, 3 month proviso and signed it, or they didn't. In what instance would it be made stale?

Generally though, you're making widescale revisions to changes that were aimed to improve clarity, and not everything requires extensive discussion or approval. I realise some of it may need discussion, but general readability points are trivial and will need to be made at some point. Can you explain why you believe changes to wording for clarity aren't allowed at this point? People have put in a lot of time to make the guidance more understandable, and generally permission is not required to do this. NJA (t/c) 18:05, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for contacting me about this. I'll explain in detail as I go along. Right now, I'm in the middle of it. Please be patient. I've seen your comments, and I'm quite sympathetic to your concerns about WP:OWN. Please rest assured that I will make sure that we do not rush anything through, and your concerns and everyone else's will be given all the attention you want. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:10, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Ownership is not my concern, my main concerns (actually more like questions at this point) that I'd like addressed are numbers 1-3 above. Cheers, NJA (t/c) 18:14, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Good, I was worried that it sounded like we were implying that editing was unwelcome, when it's more like we're just worried about overturning consensus that already happened earlier (like a week or two ago!). I'm trying to wade through about as much material as my brain can encompass right now, but I promise to answer your questions when I can. Thanks! --Tryptofish (talk) 18:18, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

OK, here are my answers:

• 1. Wikipedia talk:Community de-adminship/Draft RfC/Archive 1#16. Improve language
• 2. That's a very good point. I think I fixed it now.
• 3. It means that all the signatures have to be within 7 days. If more than 7 days go by and there are not yet 10 signatures, and then some more signatures show up on, say, day 8, then the signers from day 1 have to re-sign. Ten signatures all within a 7 day period.

Thanks for your patience. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:00, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply. I realise you're trying to roll on with the draft, and I've made a post outlining my remaining concerns (I even coloured them). Essentially there's four things that I think need simple clarification or a rethink before I'd personally say at RFC 'looks great'. I do not think anything would require the removal or addition of anything substantial to the policy draft. I'd be WP:BOLD and do it, but I rather allow for you and Ben to read it over and see why there may be some concern from someone with fresh eyes. Also, while I disagree with Mr Lewis on a few of the things that he marked as needing discussed, we should keep an open mind that consensus may be open to change. A solution could be to possibly mark them as not having support, and allowing discussion by the community at RFC?

Anyhow, thanks for the work. I hope that we can agree that the final concerns I raised today do not require major revision, and I strongly believe addressing them would make the policy draft more understandable to those who haven't actually drafted it, and thus likely to be more successful at RFC. Cheers, NJA (t/c) 11:19, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks again for the excellent work. You've been very receptive to my feedback. I've just went through the section, and I marked things  Done where I completely agree with you that it's sorted and where I had no further comment. I'm down to one red, and two oranges, and literally it's all minor wording things. I've commented below you (in this sub-section) where I had observations. Have a good weekend. Cheers, NJA (t/c) 13:09, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm out this afternoon but will be back tonight. Remember the community aspect of Wikipedia both of you, won't you? That section was pretty much only suitable for two contributing editors only. As much as anything, we musn't forget how things look. NJA - can you look at my response to you on my talk page. Cheers, Matt Lewis (talk) 13:45, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

• Trypto - You don't accept email, but I have a query I'd like to ask you. nja247ymail.com NJA (t/c) 18:44, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

EL on Neuron

Hi -- I have to disagree with you here. It's so much easier to simply add a link to an article than to edit the text that I feel we really have to take a stand against adding content that way, lest our articles devolve into nothing more than link pages. I wouldn't have any objection to adding a section with the link on the talk page, as a reference for future writing. Regards, Looie496 (talk) 19:38, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

This is a case of why can't we revise our edit summaries. I was thinking I should leave you a talk note afterwards, but didn't get to it. My bad, my apologies. Please take a closer look. I realized right after I saved my edit that it sounded like I was reverting you. I wasn't! There were two (2) ELs added and then reverted during that time period. I agreed with your reversion. I was restoring the other EL! OK? --Tryptofish (talk) 19:44, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Oh! Gah, I should have looked at the diff before reacting. I don't think this quite deserves a trout, but we can each hit ourselves with a wet goldfish, maybe. Regards, Looie496 (talk) 19:53, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

I've got a full fish tank. Feel free to jump right in and join me! Best, --Tryptofish (talk) 19:56, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Are ya asking me?

Howdy, your indent has confused me, at the CDA proposals. GoodDay (talk) 23:41, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm confused too. I think you may be referring to where I was replying to Sswonk, and thus, not to you. Could that be it? I am sure that I didn't pose any questions to you recently. Please feel free to reply where you want to, and not where you don't want to. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:48, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

It's your 23:36 post (today), which I was alluting to. GoodDay (talk) 23:50, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

(ec) I don't know which one that was. Or maybe you meant where I responded at the other talk after you and Matt? My indent there was meant as a comment-to-all, not a query to you. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:53, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Oh, ya gotta remove the indent in those situations (I think). GoodDay (talk) 23:55, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Help:Talk page#Indentation. Anyway, I think we're good, which is what mattters. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:01, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

I tweaked the indents. GoodDay (talk) 00:04, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

Thank you. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:05, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

Okie Dokie, no prob. GoodDay (talk) 00:06, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

"Vandalism"

[3] was not vandalism. A comment left by someone who perhaps doesn't know that comments go at the bottom, and brusque, but not vandalism. Please do not call, and template, things vandalism that are not. --Golbez (talk) 21:30, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

[4] Noted. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:58, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

CDA update

"Not that I'm getting paid for this" - indeed, and whilst virtue is its own reward I do occasionally have paid work to attend to and will be off line again until Sat am, save perhaps for a short time tomorrow am. I've answered the questions as best I can and with any luck it will be ready to roll this weekend. I might have try a few more tweaks tonite but its getting late. Ben MacDui 21:17, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Sounds good. That's my assessment of where we're at, also. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:44, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

I've deliberately stayed away for a number of days, hoping for the dust to settle. You know my take on the matter, so here's hoping that what should be, shall be. Thanks to you both for your hard work. Jusdafax 17:24, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Tryptofish

I naturally follow all CDA discussions, and when I see these "I feel your pain" type of comments about me obviously I am not happy. During this process, I've shouldered a load of crap which was really aimed at you and a couple of others (namely railroading and ignoring criticisms) - perhaps you could think about that for a moment, instead of just cringing at my responses? Also, you often don't seem to get the main points in my edits (inc the FAQ ones), and seem to think it is okay to label them as some kind of 'well-meaning naivety'. The idea of "meaning well" is just not a Wikipedian one. Think about it. None of us OWN's cda, and we will all of us have to wait till it is done - via the wide consensus - not the little mini ones, or per any past little polls, or out-dated originator's text - before we get to see it at RfC.

I have thought and worked outside of the 'group', which has been really essential for progress. I realise that if CDA fails it will to some people be my fault, and if it passes it would of course have done so without all the 'added drama'. It's a thankless task for me, but I'm still here working on this. I don't actual want thanks, just some base-level repect.

I am more than just a "vote", I've done more than you realise for the proposal, and the hard work is not finished yet.

On the subject of respect - there is no reason at all why I should back down on ratio's - so why the hard time for standing my ground? It not out of "ego" I assure you. I may yet concede there is consensus for it (as I've said) providing you can get consensus for it. MacDui seems to like it, but FT2 didn't, which I think is rather ominous given his status. It's a huge switch to pull on everyone right before the RfA. Also, it would have to be at least 6:1 (not 5:1) - if not closer to 9:1 (ie 90%). Ratio's or no, we have to reflect the poll results. Ask yourself this: would you go with ratio's if everyone voted for 80%? You have to try to lose your strong bias towards "80 and no higher" when you read that data.

If you tell me which of the 'none' votes (first and second choice) you find ambiguous, I am happy to ask all the voters individually what exact meaning they meant. Regarding any ambiguity (which I just cannot realistically see), people are just as likely (if not more so) to avoid voting for 'none' in a misinterpreted form, than to vote for it. I urge you to objectively think about it. Going over 80% will not be a disaster in polling terms - it will just show that we adjusted according to new data - a good thing, not a bad one, And the converse argument is true too. It will far more likely be one of the number of important fine-tuning factors that win it. Matt Lewis (talk) 21:53, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

RfC format

Could you do me the courtesy of a bit more comment than this when you revert a series of my edits, each accompanied by detailed edit summaries?

As you say there, please present your own views in the discussion section of the poll. I haven't challenged or criticized the decision by the project's proponents to open the discussion with a lengthy presentation of their position and arguments, even the arguments which have been extensively critiqued in previous discussions. However, the introduction of the RfC should be as absolutely neutral, unbiased, and straightforward as we can make it. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 21:58, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Actually, I am trying very hard to show you courtesy. If you don't believe that, just look at the bottom of Ben MacDui's talk page, where you will see me trying my hardest to get the concerns you have raised heard. Please also note that I made an edit to the poll page attempting to incorporate the parts of your edits where I felt you had made a fair point. But that does not mean that I have to agree with you on every detail. You previously asked me about making sure that your comments, and those of other editors who do not support the proposal, will be fairly heard on the poll page, and I've told you of my intention to support you on that vigorously. For example, I will oppose any effort by proposal supporters to refactor or delete comments by those who oppose the proposal. You still want me to take that position, right? Then please reflect on what you did here. You refactored comments by those with whom you disagreed. And, although I largely reverted you, I did incorporate some of the points you made. If you feel entitled to rewrite what supporters have written, then don't be surprised if supporters feel entitled to rewrite, collapse, refactor, or delete what you may be planning to write. This cuts both ways. Imagine an RfA where an editor who opposes the candidate were to modify the nominator's statement or the candidate's answers to questions. You have my absolute blessing (not that you need it) to say, in the discussion section of the RfC page or in the poll section of the page, anything and everything you want about how you disagree with me about the wording at the top of the page, and how you disagree with me about anything else. But that is the proper place for it. Please understand that. Thank you. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:41, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

It looked to me like you blanket reverted every edit that I had suggested: [5]. Then you moved the content and replaced it with a redirect, so that my edits and explanations weren't even apparent in the page history.

I don't object to the proposal's supporters making their case in the poll's Discussion, but I believe that the sort introductory text – explaining, in clear terms, what the poll is for – should be scrupulously neutral. I have explained this on the talk page of the new location of the proposed poll. You're asking what text should appear on the proposal at the instant that it goes up. In exchange for that preemptive advantage in presenting your point of view, you also take on a moral obligation to give the poll a scrupulously neutral introduction. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 22:51, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

But please note this: [6]. As for the neutrality of the introduction, as with so many things NPOV, editors on opposing sides of the question often perceive it differently; I think it is neutral, whereas your edits upset that neutrality. (The page move was simply something that was happening at the same time, no evil intent to hide the edit history there.) And please feel free to express your concerns at the discussion and poll. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:56, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Let's not kid ourselves; the FAQ is not a neutral document. (If Matt Lewis and I can actually agree on that point, it says something....) You can put it wherever you want in the 'Discussion', you can even make it the first line of your comments — but it doesn't belong in the intro. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 23:00, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

[7] and [8]. (Yes, if you two agree, that does say something, but about whom?) --Tryptofish (talk) 23:06, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

It's not clear to me why you insist that the FAQ belongs in the 'introduction' rather than with the rest of your platform in the 'discussion'. In any event, perhaps this discussion is better placed on the talk page of the proposed poll. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 23:16, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

For better or worse, it is now live. Win lose or draw, I think you have done a fantastic job. Ben MacDui 11:29, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

As I am sure you can see Matt has twice closed the discussion and there is now a short proposal at Wikipedia talk:Community de-adminship/RfC#Start/Re-start. Ben MacDui 14:19, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Since you commented on it, I wanted to let you know that I have closed and deleted Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Ben MacDui as it was never certified. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 13:27, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Personal query regarding monomers

Hi Tryptofish, do you know of any evidence for a species difference between human and rat striatal d2 monomer receptors? I am thinking of Dr Seeman's article: Dopamine D2-Like Sites in Schizophrenia, But Not in Alzheimer’s, Huntington’s, or Control Brains;Synapse Vol 25 1997; pp137-146, for [3H]Benzquinoline; copyright 1997 PHILIP SEEMAN, HONG-CHANG GUAN, JOSE NOBREGA, DILSHAD JIWA, RUDOLPH MARKSTEIN, JA-HYUN BALK, ROBERTO PICETTI, EMILIANA BORRELLI, AND HUBERT H.M. VAN TOL

In this article a clear increase was recorded in d2 monomers. He pointed out that the influence of neuroleptics on rats could increase d2monomers by 108%. But there seems to be a species difference as control humans could not detect d2 monomers, yet they were present in rats. Further, there didn't seem to be any increase in monomers due to neuroleptics as shown in schizophrenics who showed zero scores, despite neuroleptic treatment, and patients with other diseases on neuroleptics also showed zero scores. So I don't know if we can apply the possibility of a doubling of monomers due to neuroleptics in rats?

Notpayingthepsychiatrist (talk) 06:32, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

If d2high are monomers, then it would seem there is some difference as this link says wild type mice for example have a 20 something% d2 high,(http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/114211708/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0) whereas I've read for humans it is 5%.

Notpayingthepsychiatrist (talk) 06:56, 7 February 2010 (UTC) - sorry about all that - got lost in the detail - the 1986 Science study on never medicated schizophrenics answers the big question Notpayingthepsychiatrist (talk) 10:24, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm glad that worked out. I apologize for not being more active at that page, but I've been preoccupied with other things lately. I'll try to help out some more soon. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:06, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Hey Tryptofish, the graph of d2-like sites or monomers in schizophrenia that I added to that site reveals a much higher exageration of such monomers than two fold as compared to controls and is collaborated by Dr Seemans study in Nature where he found a six to seven fold increase. Why is it that the 1986 Science article only produced a Bmax difference of two fold between controls and schizophrenics?

Notpayingthepsychiatrist (talk) 04:21, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Sorry it took me a few days to get around to answering this, but, at last, I can now. I went back and looked at the article in question, and what stands out to me is that they used [³H]benzquinoline as the ligand to label the receptors. I did a PubMed search on that ligand, and apparently no one has ever published a study using it since that one, and that was well over a decade ago. That is a pretty big red flag that there must have been something amiss with the ability of the ligand to label accurately the receptors it was claimed to label. Just thinking about the chemical structure of what I assume benzquinoline to be, it strikes me as very lipid-soluble and not particularly dopamine (ie, catecholamine) like, which makes me think that it could very well be prone to non-specific labeling of non-receptor binding sites. The authors also note a few things, like non-stereospecficity, that suggest non-specific binding. My guess is that the data in the 1997 figure are not accurate, and some sort of non-specific binding gave rise to the atypically high Bmax values reported. That kind of thing happens frequently in radioligand binding studies, and it's usually prudent to be skeptical of a single study giving results that are not reproduced by other labs. Most studies do, indeed, show a two-fold or less increase, and so this one study most likely was wrong. Caveat: please understand that I am saying that while stepping out of my role as a Wikipedia editor, and instead answering in my real-life role as a professional scientist who has worked in this field. Therefore, I'm telling you my personal opinion (just as a friendly answer to your question), but, for editing purposes, it is OR and not something we can say in the article. But I hope that answers your question. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:59, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for that. I was just reading Abi Dargham's research and she seems to confirm what you said that there is in vivo a two fold increase; and this also seems to be the conclusion of the methylspiperone studies. But there is still something that makes me think the 1997 graph could be accurate and that is that it reached the same conclusion as the widely repeated post-mortem studies after 1993; and I think the results of these experiments could be described as non-stereospecific too. As they used the subtraction technique. In also finding no other studies as you did, I did find one using live subjects and 11C SDZ GLC 756 which didn't seem to be able to differentiate betwen d1 and d4 receptors and found no differences between live pretreatment schizophrenics and controls. The reference to that study is under the graph. I'll (1) write to Dr Seeman, he usually answers questions so we have a first-hand point of view and (2) include under the graph the comments in the study about non-stereospecifity so it is not misleading. Thanks for your educated reply, if you delete the graph I'll understand, but if it turns out to be credible, I'll see if I can reinstate it with explanation. It will be disappointing to me if it has to go as both Philip Seeman himself and Wiley gave us permission to use it, so you would think they thought it was credible. Thanks for setting things straight.

I only wrote to Dr Seeman a few minutes past 9 Toronto time, and he may not reply anyway, so in the meantime I've included the receptors that GLC756 binds to, and you are right, it is non-specific; but I think we need to keep in mind that this means the function of schizophrenia is wider than dopamine, and in this sense the graph is essential to the whole page and its' proposal of various causes; and the fact that it was used for other pathologies and the difference was specific to schizophrenia.

• • I think this was that question:

Hi Professor Seeman,

would you refer to a discussion myself and another Wikipedia editor are having about your 1997 Synapse graph. Please give some feedback on the credibility of the ligand as far as dopamine goes. If it is credible please frame your words so your reply can be kept at Wikipedia for future reference, as the same question will come up again

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Tryptofish#Personal_query_regarding_monomers

This specific discussion comes up after the remark 'Hey Tryptofish...

Thanks.

Hi Dr Seeman, I've adjusted the caption below the graph at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_schizophrenia#Dopamine to show schizophrenia is multifactorial - not just dopamine. A reply from you would be useful to avoid Original Research. Steve.

The caption which I added to the graph says, your graph may point to wider-than-dopamine problems in schizophrenia but we are not allowed to use original research.

-Steve

Notpayingthepsychiatrist (talk) 04:18, 11 February 2010 (UTC) Do you think we should copy this discussion to the talk page under the article? Notpayingthepsychiatrist (talk) 05:02, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Sounds good. I don't think we need to copy this to the talk page, unless, later, there is some disagreement among other editors about the matter. (A caution about the subtraction method: if either or both ligands have any experimental error, the subtraction will actually amplify that error.) --Tryptofish (talk) 16:28, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Tryptofish, hi, this is Dr Seeman's reply, I'm not sure which specific question he was replying to; over some time I sent him a number of questions about this graph; but the answer will be in here. I asked him specifically about the caption as it stood so that is why he only indirectly answers other questions. I don't think there is any affirmation or concern about the caption from him and he doesn't say anything you didn't already know; my question follows:

"Answer to your question:

"The data in Fig. 4 of my publication (Synapse 25: 137-146, 1997) show the densities (Bmax values, in pmol/gram of tissue) of [3H]Sandoz GLC 756-labelled dopamine receptors in post-mortem brain striata tissues measured in the presence of 20 nM SCH23390 (to block D1 and D5 receptors) and 130-200 nM raclopride (to block D2 and D3 receptors). Nonspecific binding of [3H]GLC756 was defined in the presence of 100 micromolar dopamine.

"The sites that were not blocked by SCH23390 and not blocked by raclopride were the D2-like receptor sites, the nature of which is not known, other than they are D2-like. The compound GLC756 is a partial agonist at D2 and an antagonist at D1 (see Markstein et al., 1996, reference), so it is clearly a dopamine-like compound, as many of the benzo[g]quinolines are.

"These sites or receptors are sensitive to dopamine-like drugs (NPA, NA, Apo, DA, etc.), as shown in Fig. 3.

"It is important to emphasize that the NON-SPECIFIC binding of [3H]GLC756 was done in the presence of 100 micromolar dopamine. In the abstract of authors (including R. Markstein) using [11C]GLC756, they injected [11C]GLC756 into 4 schizophrenia patients but did NOT DO NON-SPECIFIC binding. In other words, each of these patients should have received two brain scans: one brain scan with [11C]GLC756 alone, and a second brain scan with [11C]GLC756 together with a low dose of a dopamine-like drug (e.g. Apomorphine) which would define non-specific binding."

• • Here is the last question I asked him. I ended up proposing a solution to him as I realised the results could be nonspecific from the experiment itself and from your advice.

Hi Dr Seeman,

I just tried to call you twice and for some reason both public phones cut out.

Could you have a look at the caption I used on your graph to see if it's ok? In the article you mention 45-50% of binding was nonspecific at a certain concentration of dopamine and in conclusion you mention that it would be good to find out what the specific binding sites of GLC756 are - in the caption I mention a 2006 article which lists the binding sites for GLC756.

I have not been able to find a source which says the GLC756 used in this graph has picked up serotonin receptors etc and that these were probably in your study in Nature of 1993 and infer schizophrenia is caused by widespread disturbances (I would like to say by hypoxia http://sites.google.com/site/schizophreniahypoxia/ ) Do you know of a source which lists serotonin, dopamine, TGF (or is it TNF) as being abnormal in schizophrenia and that you would apply to this graph?

Here is the link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_schizophrenia#Dopamine

Thanks Dr Seeman,

Notpayingthepsychiatrist (talk) 20:46, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

He actually is not answering the same question that you asked me. He is instead describing how the measurements were done, without really addressing the question of why the results differed from those in other studies. He does point out, indirectly, that his study was specifically trying to measure only the D₄ subtype of the D₂-like receptor group, although, in my opinion (note: OR), using raclopride to differentiate D₄ from D₂ and D₃ is unconvincing; also 100 μM dopamine is a high concentration that could make non-specific binding look specific. When he says "the nature of which is not known, other than they are D2-like", he is really indicating as much. So, bottom line, that doesn't really change what I said already. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:24, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

I agree and was just typing this when I got an edit conflict: It seems he is using the competition method in much the same way as his 1993 Nature post mortem, but this time with a radioligand; and the impression I get is that he knows the residual receptors from the competition method could be other than dopamine. I asked him for a source to quote which would say the competition method revealed sz is the results of other neurotransmitters, as seems to be the case here, but he didn't supply it, and I think as far as integrity of finding dopamine specific receptors is concerned, which I asked him for, he doesn't show that, so if we keep the graph, I think we should show it as an example of the competition method, which I will change it to immediately. Notpayingthepsychiatrist (talk) 21:37, 11 February 2010 (UTC) I just realised Dr Seeman did actually check for the serotonin receptors by checking for binding of serotonin itself. Notpayingthepsychiatrist (talk) 09:12, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Your VOTE 2 vote at CDA (everyone who voted in VOTE 2 gets one)

Hi Tryptofish,

you are receiving this message as you voted in VOTE 2 at the recent Community de-Adminship 'Proposal Finalization' Poll. Unfortunately, there is a hitch regarding the "none" vote that can theoretically affect all votes.

1) Background of VOTE 2:

In a working example of CDA; ater the 'discussion and polling phase' is over, if the "rule of thumb" baseline percentage for Support votes has been reached, the bureaucrats can start to decide whether to desysop an admin, based in part on the evidence of the prior debate. This 'baseline' has now been slightly-adjusted to 65% (from 70%) per VOTE 1. VOTE 2 was asking if there is a ballpark area where the community consensus is so strong, that the bureaucrats should consider desysopping 'automatically'. This 'threshold' was set at 80%, and could change pending agreement on the VOTE 2 results.

This was VOTE 2;

Do you prefer a 'desysop threshold' of 80% or 90%, or having none at all?

As a "rule of thumb", the Bureaucrats will automatically de-sysop the Administrator standing under CDA if the percentage reaches this 'threshold'. Currently it is 80% (per proposal 5.4).

Please vote "80" or "90", or "None", giving a second preference if you have one.

This is the VOTE 2 question without any ambiguity;

Do you prefer a "rule of thumb" 'auto-desysop' percentage of 80%, 90%, or "none"?

Where "none" means that there is no need for a point where the bureaucrats can automatically desysop.

Please vote "80" or "90", or "None", giving a second preference if you have one.

2) What was wrong with VOTE 2?

Since the poll, it has been suggested that ambiguity in the term "none at all" could have affected some of the votes. Consequently there has been no consensus over what percentage to settle on, or how to create a new compromise percentage. The poll results are summarised here.

3) How to help:

Directly below this querying message, please can you;

• Clarify what you meant if you voted "none".

• In cases where the question was genuinely misunderstood, change your initial vote if you wish to (please explain the ambiguity, and don't forget to leave a second choice if you have one).

• Please do nothing if you interpreted the question correctly (or just confirm this if you wish), as this query cannot be a new vote.

I realise that many of you clarified your meaning after your initial vote, but the only realistic way to move forward is to be as inclusive as possible in this vote query. Sorry for the inconvenience,

Matt Lewis (talk) 10:23, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

• Reply. I still favor 80% and oppose numbers higher than 80%. I also reject the implication that there is any such thing as "a point where the bureaucrats can automatically desysop". There is no such thing. --Tryptofish (talk) 16:41, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Everyone I'm posting this to knows that the percentages are "rule of thumb", and I've said this above a number of times. Nobody thinks that "automatically" means instantly - it just means that crats can decide that the consensus is so strong that the public has spoken, faith has been lost, and as FT2 put it on his talk page; there's really not much question about it and no "judgment" (is) needed. Matt Lewis (talk) 20:19, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Comments from an editor interested in me

Please drop the stick and refrain from wikihounding me, or I will take this issue to AN/I. Also, you're still using meme incorrectly. DaiZengar;;^{Smite evil} 23:12, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

That makes two terms that you are using incorrectly. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:18, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm sure you just happened to be on his talk page, noticed my comment, and couldn't help but leave one of your usual snide and irrelevant remarks.DaiZengar^{Smite evil} 23:20, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Please do not attack other editors, as you did here: User_talk:Tryptofish. If you continue, you will be blocked from editing Wikipedia. DaiZengar^{Smite evil} 23:25, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Responding to your hounding of me is not hounding you, what the hell is wrong with you?DaiZengar^{Smite evil} 23:33, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Well, it appears that I am up to 2 centijimbos. :-) --Tryptofish (talk) 00:27, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

!

Don't worry - I knew what you did! Matt Lewis (talk) 19:11, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Near caused me (a spectator) a fainting spell. GoodDay (talk) 19:14, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Poor GoodDay, you, in contrast, were reverted intentionally. Just to be clear, it was a mouse pointing error that I self reverted as soon as I had realized it happened. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:16, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

No probs, I've consented to my post being reverted. GoodDay (talk) 19:21, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

So I understand, but I nearly had a fainting spell when I saw that. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:24, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

If ya knew my Wiki-conduct history prior to January 7, 2010. You'd understand the reasoning behind the reverting. GoodDay (talk) 19:29, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Just as well I don't. Happy editing! --Tryptofish (talk) 19:31, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Actually, my understanding of Wiki-history is that "trouting" started when someone actually blanked the main page. So I guess I could have done worse! --Tryptofish (talk) 19:33, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Implementation of bureaucrat removal of admin/crat flags

Hi there, I'm here to solicit your thoughts at Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Bureaucrat Unchecking. The poll, which you participated in, found consensus to give bureaucrats the technical ability to remove admin and bureaucrat flags, where this is currently done by the stewards. Your thoughts are particularly interesting because you expressed some reservation about allowing -crat as well as -admin. I wondered if you'd thought any more on the matter. Cheers, Happy‑melon 20:21, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for asking me. I guess the short answer is no, I haven't thought about it more, because I've been pretty much preoccupied with other things. But the more nuanced answer is that I continue to like the idea, and my only reservation was about whether it made sense for Bureaucrats to be able to remove the flag from fellow Bureaucrats. After I made that comment, other editors made comments that persuaded me that my reservation was really not a big deal. I doubt that it would be a big impediment, but my only suggestion would be, just maybe, that it might simplify things to limit the proposal to removal of Administrator flags only. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:08, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. Could I ask you to specify what your concerns were, and why you now feel them resolved? I don't want to burden, but I think it would be useful to know how the ideas have developed. Thanks, Happy‑melon 22:19, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Well, I guess it just seemed a little dicey for Crats to be able to act against other Crats, a sort of wheel-war situation, loosely speaking—better to leave that to the "higher" level of Stewards. The reasons I'm less concerned is that such a situation would actually happen only rarely, would be visible and subject to correction if needed, and that Crats have already been pretty rigorously vetted before getting where they are. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:25, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, that's very useful. Happy‑melon 22:31, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

CDA quagmire

Hi, I'm an intermittent watcher of the CDA debacle and I am here to thank you for working so hard on it and keeping your cool throughout the process. I'm sorry to see one editor is able to drag the whole process to a halt, and I agree with others that the proposal needs either a reboot or simply taking the draft to RfC as is. I'd like to help in fixing up the draft as you have suggested interested editors do, but I simply can't extract any sort of consensus out of the overlong and complicated discussions to inform a sensible edit. I know I'm not alone in feeling that way (it's been mentioned a handful of times on the discussion page), but despite my inability to jump in and give you a hand I wanted to let you know that there may be some silent support of your efforts and the proposal in general around the wiki. Here's hoping your morale hasn't been too badly injured by the ordeal, — Bility (talk) 20:54, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

I agree there will be some silent support for Tryptofish, as I know there is plenty for me too. I object to the accusation that I am dragging CDA to a halt - I it must be levelled at Tryptofish too, because if he compromised on 85% this would be a done deal weeks ago. The truth is that we are still in the consensus building stage. That is life - so we must deal with it and stop moaning about the time its taking.

I always find lack of consensus a sticking point, simply per Wikipedia Policy.

The problem is people are split on the matter of the threshold precentage. So what do we do? I suggest we find the compromise consensus, and make sure have a solid consensus behind each elements of CDA before pushing to the RfC. Without consensus, Wikipedia is nothing of any value at all - and the Rfc will deservedly crumble. 80% polled around 38% in a 77-voter poll, and only those happy with 80% want to push through CDA (you seem to be the first exception to this? Or would you be happy with 85?). Ignoring major consenus issues cannot be the way to start such an important matter as CDA. The actual arguments were strong for 90% and "none" too. We cannot just ignore that - those people have rights, feelings, people they will represent, and actual votes too. Matt Lewis (talk) 21:42, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Bility, thank you very much for that. Matt, for someone who alleges that I speak improperly for other editors (which in fact I do not), you should take a look in the mirror. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:54, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

WHO do I speak improperly for??????

I notice you always thank profusely those people who have a pop at me, surely based on your own negative comments on me (it can be nothing else as I have support, policy, consensus - I have it all), and you thank them on the draft page, on their talk page, everywhere you can. For you to keep suggesting that I am personally dragging CDA down when you alone resist the obvious 85% solution is nothing short of a LIE you are propagating. I can't put it any lighter than that right now. To say I'm responsible for you making your negative "This is stalled" section (and all the drama that came from it) is just a massive lie. All the work you are making me do clearing up this pretend "ambiguity" is frankly an abuse of another human being. Do you realise I have a life? People who need me off this fucking PC? If you have a mirror yourself I'd give yourself six or seven hours in front if it. You say you are not a "young man". I won't tell you what I say about that. I'm just getting so pissed off you just don't know. Think flesh, think blood. I'm not a blue name - I'm a human being. I've never seen an editor like you, and boy have a seen some editors in the places I've been to on WIkipedia. Matt Lewis (talk) 22:43, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Take a look at WP:CIVIL while you're at it. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:45, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

As I've told Matt (days ago), yas will have to be patient with me. The discussions & proposals at CDA, tend to be overwhelming at times. I'm easily confused when there's load of words. GoodDay (talk) 18:29, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Please do answer my questions to you

You recently stated: "I have not replied to your questions higher on this talk page because they appear to me to be unhelpful."

I'm sorry to hear you feel that my questions are unhelpful, but I disagree, and I think that on re-reading in good faith you will find them to be constructive.

At this point, I would like to insist that you answer them. I'm going to put some teeth to my request now.

Note that the User Conduct RFC requirements are as follows: "Before requesting community comment, at least two editors must have contacted the user on their talk page, or the talk pages involved in the dispute, and tried but failed to resolve the problem."

In general, on wikipedia, it is wiser to answer questions somewhat badly or after some delay rather than not answer them at all. If you do not answer questions asked of you, then it is de-facto true that one will have tried but failed to solve the problem one wished to discuss with you.

I have been fairly polite; but I think I'm being clear that I do not accept your easy answers, and want you to stop and think some more.

I'm still giving you plenty of room and chances to do so.

Also, obviously, I cannot and will not force you to chat in real time if you really don't want to. You are right that such conversation happens to be off wiki, and nothing forces you to discuss things outside the wiki.

However, if you want to be taken seriously, and do not wish to be sanctioned, you must not fail to answer those questions asked of you on the wiki.

I want to stress here that my prime objective is not to throw the book at you (though I will if I need to), my prime objective is to remain in conversation with you, and I hope to bring things to an amicable end.

--Kim Bruning (talk) 20:46, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

I will, then, at the discussion page. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:59, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Done. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:32, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Thank you! &replied. --Kim Bruning (talk) 23:12, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

RFC/U against Jusdafax won't work

FWIW.

Jusdafax rightly points out that (s)he is within their rights to open an RFC if they want to, no matter how annoying that is to us. We can use policy to force people to enter discussion with us and behave in a reasonable fashion. Once people are in discussion with us and are behaving in a reasonable fashion, sanctions have no further function.

If we want to convince Jusdafax to change course, we will need to reason with them. --Kim Bruning (talk) 21:57, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

I know that. There's way too much talk of that sort of thing, in my opinion. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:17, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

If you know, then act like you know! ;-) (I guess you're starting to do so now. :-) --Kim Bruning (talk) 22:36, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Your parental attitude towards me has not been requested and is not welcome. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:38, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Look. You can't ignore people, and you can't blatantly threaten people with policies that do not apply, when you admit that you *know* they do not apply. That's deliberately disruptive behavior. So I can ask you nicely not to do it, or I can just issue you yet another warning for acting in bad faith. Hereby done.

--Kim Bruning (talk) 22:54, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Look, Mom, I didn't threaten Jusdafax, blatantly or otherwise, and it's pretty rich for you to be accusing me of disruption. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:00, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Humor doesn't carry very well on the internet: Were you kidding here? [9] (relevant quote: "insert the now-customary threat of RfC/U here" ) --Kim Bruning (talk) 23:11, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Oh, good grief. Is that what you are exercised about? I've been very vocal in condemning all this tossing around of RfC/U threats, including the threats against me. You are focusing on a parenthetical comment about "now-customary". I was not so much kidding as making a satirical comment finding fault with all the drama on the page. It appears that you are becoming very annoyed with me, and you are looking for reasons to dispute with me. It seems to me that Jusdafax is quite capable of standing up for himself, and does not need you to be a self-appointed sheriff on his behalf. If I haven't lived up to your expectations as a correspondent, perhaps you would be happier moving on to someone else. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:22, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

I don't think anyone threatened a RFC/u on Jusdafax over this did they? (ie over placing an early version of CDA at RfC). I do see it as 100% disruptive - I can't see it as any other way - but I personally can't really use an RFC/u as, unlike the version MacDui suddenly put to RfC, his version of CDA is not a proposal I am working on myself. Essentially Judafax will be proposing his own proposal, in the full knowledge that another is being proposed too. It will be a one man show, ala 'The Monster Raving Loony Party' at UK elections. If it has to happen (and given the massive new edits on the CDA page, probably will), I will make absolutely clear to all voting that he is simply an outside (and early) runner, and a willfully anti-consensus one at that. I wish MacDui was clearer than just saying it would fail - sitting on the fence has just spurred Judafax on. Matt Lewis (talk) 23:15, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Hi Matt. You are, clearly, quite correct. I don't know if you saw my earlier comment at the talk page, but my (unsolicited) suggestion was that you should not worry about responding to every comment there (or here, on my talk), but rather try to wrap up your analyses. Seeing what has happened in the last day or so, I'm much more committed to trying to work with you to try and get a real proposal ready, but I can't until you have your interpretation ready. I think the sooner we have a real proposal, the better we will be able to counteract the damage of the hasty one. So, please focus and don't let the annoying people distract you. OK? --Tryptofish (talk) 23:27, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

It's good advice and I'm trying too, but I'm always fearful of what is going on elsewhere with CDA. I've decided to revert to the CDA we had earier today (Reverting Bility - see his Talk for my reasons). On scanning it, I actually disagreed with too much of it (though not all of it in principle), and we spent a long time on some of those consensuses. If you agree and wish to help me there, it would certainly free me more time to finish the query data. Regarding the Canvassing section (I think Bility simply deleted it as a section), I must admit I'm very worried we'll have time to get it right - but one step at a time right now. Matt Lewis (talk) 23:34, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

OK. Please don't be fearful. I've already seen Bility's talk, and I think you saw there that I already alerted him that he would need to be at least somewhat reverted. I'm not too worried about intermediate edits at the Guide page right now, because we will have to fix it up after we get the concepts right. I think you've seen that I'm pretty good at being firm when the time comes to be firm, and I plan to. Right now, I need you to tune out the unpleasant noise and work on your information. As you already know, I cannot promise ahead of time to agree with every interpretation you make, but I'm going to work with you, so long as you will work with me. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:40, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

PS. I'm worried I'm finding too many gaps to get anywhere, and have no indication how you will take to them. If you could accept 85% right now, and we got straight onto Canvassing (seeing as we live in different countries and we are both online), who knows - we could get something I'd personally be happy polling tomorrow ourselves! We could go to town stressing how that Crats can essentially de-sysop at any percentage if they wish. The big plus about 85% (why I'm so big on it) is that no-one can say its not a damn good shot at a serious consensus figure. On that level, it's the strongest one we have. In my eyes, it's all down the controlling 'risk' at the RfC - we cannot let "no" or "weak" or "ignored" "consensus" be a charge against us - we have to show we have worked at getting strong ones throughout. Failing charges surrounding consensus will be a fatal blow, I'm certain of that. I can only fight for something I genuinely believe in: which is basically a consensus based CDA. All other aspects can be changed later - but conensus is live, and we can't ignore the issue now. We also need to remind people that anything can change at a later date: the Crats may reduce or increase the percentages in the future. Matt Lewis (talk) 23:54, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

I have that concert tomorrow evening (not something I can say very often these days) - it's symphonic, so it's long, and is not starting late (ie I may have no time to edit from after tomorrow lunch - I just can't say). It's a bad day I'm afraid. Matt Lewis (talk) 23:54, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

In my time zone, I'm about to close up for the night. I'm really torn about this. I'm not sure that I understand what you meant about finding too many gaps. I'm going into this from the position that I already stated what I believe, but that I'm open to changing my mind in the face of evidence that I was wrong. If you are finding gaps, that might not be evidence of the sort I'm looking for. I'll work on everything except the % tomorrow, and we can talk more about this when you have the chance. Please don't worry, and enjoy the symphony! --Tryptofish (talk) 01:08, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

OK, I havent fully presented the results yet - I had a number of periods today and I found more pressing things to do on CDA, as you can see. As the mean was above 85% (esp taking the second choices into account, if you see lal the "none"s as "100%"), it still looks like 85% is the fair compromise even when adjusted, but I'll have to try and prove this later with what we have. In a way, it's the least of our troubles right now (although i maintain that we HAVE to sure of consensus with it). Must rush now, I'll be on as soon as I'll get back. And I'll try and enjoy the concert too. PS. Have you thought about the Watchlist? Matt Lewis (talk) 18:25, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Good, I hope the concert proves to be a good break from all the stuff that goes on here. I find that, often, things that seem like a big deal here, come into perspective as not so important after taking a step back, into the real world. Frankly, some of the stuff you did today doesn't strike me as all that pressing, more like getting wrapped up in the small stuff. Although I'm still willing to wait a bit longer for evidence that might convince me about the percentage, I think Jusdafax will go forward any minute now, and I really don't want to wait much longer. I'd rather wrap things up while we still have the upper hand. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:55, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Removing so much of my work when you knew I was out is a disgusting thing for you to do, Tryptofish. What else do you expect me to say? Damn you.

All you have done in my absense is given me a more hours of unnecessary work to do - why do you do this to me? You have made massive edits going back weeks, but without any "Needs discussion" tags, or alternate versions in at all. You have made this a battle of egos, and a war of attrition - I have edits that have been backed by others: you cannot just delete them. I never just delete yours.

Now what was I doing at the concert worrying about what you yourself would do? You have not right to say this is inconsequential. I have invested a huge amount of time in this.

You speak above as if you expect me to have a break at the concert, and suddenly "see sense"! How patronising is that? If you see the Canvassing matter as "not all that pressing" then you simply have your head in the sand. I cannot vote for a CDA that ignores the initial stages of debate: it would be damaging to Wikipedia, and I would strongly appose it. A great many others would too, as you should know having seen the evidence.

DO NOT PUT THIS UP JUST TO COMPETE WITH JUSDAFAX. Matt Lewis (talk) 22:55, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Did you even read what I said just above before losing your temper? --Tryptofish (talk) 22:57, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

I did and I think you are playing games. Whether it is to get the "upper hand" proposing the working version of CDA (you have no right to rush it for any reason), or an excuse to get your own favoured edits in (which is all that it does of course), you knew how I'd react to you removing my edits that have for 2 weeks. Both excuses are unacceptable ones. Neither are in the spirit of Wikipedia. Matt Lewis (talk) 00:25, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Meatpuppetry warning

This is the kind of rule you should be reading about. I honestly don't think you even feel you have to read Policy, Consensus - all that bumf. Matt Lewis (talk) 00:20, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

I understand policy, and based upon that, you clearly do not. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:21, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

ANI

Howdy Tryptofish. Would you 'remove' the link to my talkpage? I rather it stay between me & Matt. GoodDay (talk) 00:20, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Feel free to comment at ANI. I consider it over-generous of you to let it go. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:22, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

I've forgiven Matt. If I did not, then wouldn't I be guilty of WP:BATTLE, too? GoodDay (talk) 00:24, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Tryptofish sees himself as here to speak and act on everyone else's behalf, to basically get what he wants - that's been the biggest problem with CDA. It's a brick wall. Matt Lewis (talk) 00:27, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Hello, Tryptofish. I have just came across the thread concerning Matt Lewis and have made a comment there. I hope you and others will take what I have said on board and get back on track. You are all for the most part after the same thing so coming to an agreement not to continue infighting would benefit everyone. Thanks. Jack forbes (talk) 18:33, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm trying, Jack, I'm really trying. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:12, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

If we can get Matt and yourself to come to some sort of understanding it would be a good start. I'm no admin here but if I can be of any help please let me know. It would be a tragedy if it all came crashing round everyones ears due to some strongly worded disagreements. Jack forbes (talk) 19:19, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

OK, thanks, I'm going to take you up on your offer, after a fashion. In my opinion, what I personally need to do at the moment is to focus on getting work done, and to back off from rebutting Matt at every step. Obviously, what Matt does is up to him. What you can do, if you'd like to, is to go to Wikipedia talk:Community de-adminship (primarily), and Wikipedia talk:Community de-adminship/Draft RfC (secondarily, at this point), and read through the reams of material there, and then see if you can provide some objective third opinions about edits at Wikipedia:Guide to Community de-adminship. I very much believe that the best thing for CDA would be to have more editors of good-faith providing their own informed opinions. Thanks. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:26, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Tryptofish, I just popped back here whilst in the middle of a long wikibreak and unfortunately I don't have the time to get fully involved in the Cde process. I am far too busy in real life at the moment to get tied up there, sorry. My actual thinking was that I would offer any assistance (if wanted) to help Matt, yourself and others to once again work collaboratively on this project. It only takes one person to say no and it's the end of that road but, hopefully everyone can see that without collaboration the Cde itself may come to the end of the road. Can I ask you, if Matt were willing to draw a line under the previous disagreements would you be willing to do the same. Jack forbes (talk) 20:54, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

You may wish to see what I just said a few seconds ago at AN/I. I do not know what drawing a line would mean, in practical terms. I've been bitten before when trying to be friendly with Matt. I've already told you what I intend for my own conduct, and I think that's that. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:57, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

When I say drawing a line under it I don't mean everyone suddenly agreeing with each other. I do mean that conversations will stay on an even keel. To make it clear, I'm not here to blame you or anyone for the breakdown in communications. I'm just hoping to start them again. I may be naive in thinking it will happen but I believe it's better to try than not to. I may also be the wrong person to try this. Cheers. Jack forbes (talk) 21:21, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Jack, I totally get what you are saying, and I appreciate the good will of it. But please look at what just happened. I put what I hoped was a conciliatory comment at AN/I, and a few seconds later, Matt logged back on, and he has been going on a spree of personal attacks, way over the top. I need to put my energy where I can accomplish something good. As far as I'm concerned, Matt's future is up to Matt. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:25, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

I have read`it, Tryptofish and have commented on Matts talk page so I shall leave it there. I wish you all the best. Jack forbes (talk) 21:34, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

And you too, Jack. Thank you for trying. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:36, 20 February 2010 (UTC)