User talk:Tony1/How to use hyphens and dashes

Feedback is welcome. Tony (talk) 08:03, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Comments

Hi Tony. Sections 1.3 and 1.7, "From 2005–07, house prices in Capetown rose by a third." are the same. Could you do a couple of em dash problems too, such as parentheses vs em dash, and comma/semi-colon vs em dash. Looking good otherwise! Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email) 15:32, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Good idea, Matthew. 1.3 and 1.7 fixed. Tony (talk) 18:43, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Kudos

Many thanks for this Tony, much appreciated. —Giggy 09:32, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

You're very welcome, Giggy. Tony (talk) 11:26, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Suggestion

Very good work, Tony; well done. One suggestion: why not include examples on more obscure cases, like the fact that Greco-, Franco-, Anglo-, Russo-, Sino- etc. take hyphens instead of en dashes? I have encountered article titles like Russo–Crimean War, no doubt a result of hyper-correction. Waltham, The Duke of 18:54, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Thx; yes, it needs to be extended (i.e., finished). Tony (talk) 03:10, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

And it has, as far as I am concerned. Thank you; it's excellent. Waltham, The Duke of 14:56, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Question

A question about the African-American engineering professor. I'm not questioning your logic, but African American is never hyphenated in practice, in my experience. —Mattisse (Talk) 17:48, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Ah, I see that as a nominal group it's two separate words; as a double adjective, as here, it is hyphenated. But since that's not my point here, it will have to be changed. Thanks. Tony (talk) 05:40, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Question related to 1.9

Looking at the example in 1.9, "Australia – New Zealand" (with spaces), I'm still not sure how to extend that. For a ship route between places an en dash is used, i.e. London–Boston, and if it were say London to New York your rule would definitely apply. What about a route from London to Boston to New York? Which of these two:

London–Boston – New York (spaced only between Boston and New York)

or

London – Boston – New York (spaced between all)

would be preferred? I'm guessing the second, because the first ends up looking more like a mistake than anything else. Also, should any of the spaces by non-breaking? — Bellhalla (talk) 12:37, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

The first looks like a shipping line between an impossible London–Boston transatlantic conurbation and New York. I say the second is correct, though Tony is free to disagree if he dares wants. If you use non-breaking spaces, these should be the ones preceding the dashes:

London – Boston – New York

There is also the alternative of using {{–}} instead of  –:

London{{–}} Boston{{–}} New York

I don't quite know where it should be used, though. I like using it in navboxes, and prefer the standard HTML hard space in text—for consistency. Waltham, The Duke of 20:28, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

You mean you've never visited the metropolis of London–Boston before? Thanks for the reply and the laugh. — Bellhalla (talk) 20:39, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Transatlantic love affair

If the article is part of the names, it should be "The" with a capital T; if it isn't, it should not be within the quotation marks (and probably shouldn't be there at all). That is,

In 2003, the name of the body was changed from "The British–American Commission" to "The Anglo–American Commission".

if The is part of the names, and

In 2003, the name of the body was changed from the "British–American Commission" to the "Anglo–American Commission".

or better

In 2003, the name of the body was changed from "British–American Commission" to "Anglo–American Commission".

otherwise. Right? -- Army1987 – Deeds, not words. 16:25, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

I think your first option is the best one, don't you? You can change it, if you're inclined. Tony (talk) 17:05, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

What do you refer to as "my first option"? Either the name of body does include the article, or it doesn't, and we're not the ones who decide that. -- Army1987 – Deeds, not words. 17:56, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

"The ..." to "The ...". But I don't mind. Please change the text in the exericse if you wish, Army. Tony (talk) 10:27, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

I appreciate the point that's being made here, but the example strikes me as odd. Surely determining how Anglo-American Commission should be punctuated is a job for the Anglo-American Commission? I'd have thought Wikipedia should use whatever punctuation is used at their website or whatever – we can't impose our own style on the name of an external body. If they for some reason called themselves the "Anglo American Commission" or even the "Angloamerican Commission", shouldn't Wikipedia do the same? Adrian J. Hunter^{(talk•contribs)} 06:50, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Adrain: two points. First, one can't always trust an organisation to get it right, and you often find more than one version within an organisation; certainly, a google search can yield dissonance. Second, the Commission in this exercise is fictional. I think I might change it, as you suggest. Tony (talk) 07:55, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Not sure I entirely agree with your reasoning above, but I like the new version. Adrian J. Hunter^{(talk•contribs)} 15:49, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Feedback

Hi Tony, I have a couple minor suggestions for Hyphens and dashes:

• Trade agreement: "If either of the items has an internal space ... the en dash needs to be spaced as well."
  It may be helpful to add that this doesn't apply to ranges like 25–27 August and June–August 1940, since August 1940 could be interpreted as a single item with an internal space.
• Hot town: "A minus sign is very subtlely different from an en dash—something to do with lying lower on the line."
  To me, "higher on the line" seems more appropriate: hyphen, en, em, and &minus gives - – — −25.

Best regards, Pslide (talk) 00:43, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

But the word August applies to both, just as 1940 does. So 25 and 27 are both stand-alones, without a space; so are June and August. But 26 June –  5 August ... they're each an internally spaced unit. Tony (talk) 00:52, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

The spider that weaves golden orbs

It's been brought to my attention that the Golden orb-weaver spider is named not for the yellow colouration on its body, but for the striking yellow strands in its magnificent webs. I've been pondering whether one could deduce that from the manner in which the name is hyphenated. This differs from the Canadian weather example on this page, as "orb weaver" is a legitimate stand-alone phrase, whereas "pressure area" is not. My intuitive and highly tentative conclusion is yes: a "Golden orb-weaver" is a weaver of golden orbs; a golden weaver of orbs would be a "Golden orb weaver". Is this correct? This might be worked into an example to contrast with the Canadian weather example. For the record, a moment's Googling suggests it's most commonly written with no hyphen. Adrian J. Hunter^{(talk•contribs)} 07:42, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Good, except...

""Low-pressure area"—the noun is "area", qualified by a double adjective. There's no such thing as a "pressure area", which could be low or high. Same for "upper-level jet stream"; it's not a "level jet stream" that happens to be the upper one of two."

Actually, precisely because there's no such thing as a "pressure area", "low pressure area" is correct, as it cannot be ambiguous. 173.11.0.145 (talk) 22:34, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

I don't get it. The reasons you give for both and just why a hyphen is necessary: to pair the double adjectives and make the Head, the noun, explicitly separate. Tony (talk) 00:50, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Exercises

Hi

Are your exercise pages (hyphens and dashes etc.) up-to-date with the current MoS?

I only ask as we use them on the GOCE pages. I realise I asked about a particular page a while ago, but thought it best I ask again about the rest. I also wondered if there are any that weren't on the list? ({{User:Tony1/Writing exercise box}}) In particular I seem to remember a commas exercise that I can no longer find ... though that may just be my memory failing :¬) Thanks Chaosdruid (talk) 01:04, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

Thx, once the dashes thing is resolved, I'll check through this and revise if necessary (I think once exercise on the spacing will need to be revisited). Comma workshop is on the queue for writing; so it "the" for non-native speakers. Maybe over the coming months. Tony (talk) 09:19, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

Cool, I realise that you are pretty damn busy and that MoS changes seem day to day at the moment. MoS is a difficult subject as it is such a massive body of work, especially the sub-pages which are sometimes a little out of sync with the main page (even changing from hour to hour with all those edit-wars lol). Your work is wonderful (at least IMHO) and really does help clarify the job at hand! Thanks for your hard work :¬) Chaosdruid (talk) 15:29, 11 July 2011 (UTC)