User talk:Tim riley/sandbox10

Earlier exchange archived.

Rossini

Il signor Tambourossini - 1821 caricature of Rossini's musical style.

Great so far, do think of using this which I've just uploaded to Commons. Although alas you'd probably have to reduce its size. Or we could keep it for the music section.....--Smerus (talk) 17:07, 14 July 2018 (UTC) You might mention in connection with Tancredi Stendhal's eulogy of the opera in his 'Vie de Rossini' of 1824. and the biography itself is certainly worth mentioning imo - the first one published of Rossini (who was then only 32) and one which, despite Stendhal's liberal imagination, became and remained immensely influential - but I guess you are reserving all that for 'Paris 1824-1829'.--Smerus (talk) 17:21, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

Smerus, To be honest I've been dithering what to do about Stendhal. He is highly notable but anything but reliable. I think I'll just see where he takes me, subject to your veto. Excellent picture! You'll need some for the music section, and perhaps we should wait till the text is nearly finished before divvying out the images. I favour the Bologna picture for the lead (as now in the draft – what think you?), but am biddable on what others should go where. I've been doing a bit of rummaging at the British Library this morning, from which I'll start the skeleton of a Recordings section once I've killed the old boy off (not a moment too soon, by all accounts, poor love!)

I was truly much impressed at one of the sources (from the CUP) you have just added. I had no idea, and may treat you with more deference in future. Tim riley talk 12:49, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

some hope!--Smerus (talk) 19:47, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

Sale of manuscripts

I'm not sure if this will be useful or not for the legacy section. I think Rossini might be amused to know that 47 Leicester Square is now a branch of McDonald's. The Rossiniburger: a rissole topped with foie gras and truffle. – Tim riley talk 15:43, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

Very interesting: do we know where any of these manuscripts ended up?--Smerus (talk) 19:46, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

Not at the moment, but I'll have a rummage and see if I can find out. Tim riley talk 07:28, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

Cited material in current article

Smerus, as I round into the home straight of the Life section I am checking over the existing article to check that such cited material as is there – viz just 29 statements – is either covered in the new draft or excluded for good reason. These are my suggestions: your comments would be most welcome.

Lead and Life

• He was a rapid and prolific composer, quoted as joking, "Give me the laundress' bill and I will even set that to music."[3]
  • Attrib. Toye (p. 313) quotes it as "Give me a laundry list and I will set it to music". Toye quotes it to make a point: " His carelessness in the setting of words, for instance, proceeded to some extent from the remarkably pure musicality of his inspiration. Music as pure sound, rhythm as pure rhythm, meant everything to him; words very little. Give me a laundry list," he is reported once to have said, "and I will set it to music."
• Until his retirement in 1829, Rossini had been the most popular opera composer in history.[4]
  • This statement is from Nicholas Till, a respectable academic. I think we might include it in the article if not the lead.
• Prinetti also owned a business selling beer and had a propensity to fall asleep while standing. These qualities made him a subject for ridicule in the eyes of the young Rossini.[6]
  • Properly referenced but not central to the narrative. Engaging trivia, fine in a 300-page book, but not in a 9,000-word article, I think.
• He visited the Naples conservatory, and, although less than four years senior to Mercadante, he said to the Director Niccolò Zingarelli, "My compliments Maestro—your young pupil Mercadante begins where we finish."[7]
  • Relevant to the Mercadante article, but not important in Rossini's.
• Communicating in writing, Beethoven noted: "Ah, Rossini. So you're the composer of The Barber of Seville. I congratulate you. It will be played as long as Italian opera exists. Never try to write anything else but opera buffa; any other style would do violence to your nature."[8]
  • Covered in my draft.
• Fabio Luisi said that Rossini planned for Guillaume Tell to be his last opera even as he composed it.[9]
  • One of many theories about R's retirement – duly covered in the draft.
• The libretto was by Étienne Jouy and Hippolyte Bis, but their version was revised by Armand Marrast.[10]
  • True, but is this of enough importance to call for inclusion here?
• Six movements of his Stabat Mater[11] were written in 1832 by Rossini himself and the other six by Giovanni Tadolini,
  • Covered in draft.
• His speculations in fish mongering,[12]
  • Anecdotal nonsense: no mention of such a thing in any of the biographies.
• In 1839 Rossini was appointed director of the Liceo Musicale di Bologna where among his pupils was contralto Marietta Alboni.[13]
  • Not true. He was an honorary consultant there, but did not teach.
• where he hosted many artistic and literary figures in his apartment at 2 Rue de la Chaussée-d'Antin.[14]
  • Covered in draft. (More to come on that.)
• Among them was the forty years younger Belgian mattauphone(fr) virtuoso Edmond Michotte, whom Rossini considered his quasi figlio.[15]
  • Michotte is mentioned in the biographies because he left extensive reminiscences of Rossini's conversation. Not sure he warrants space in the article, though.
• Rossini himself was an outstanding pianist whose playing attracted high praise from people such as Franz Liszt, Sigismond Thalberg, Camille Saint-Saëns, and Louis Diémer.[16]
  • This seems both correct and worth a mention.
• According to Herbert Weinstock's 1968 biography,[17] the composer's estate was valued at 2.5 million francs upon his death in 1868, the equivalent of about 1.4 million US dollars. According to one contemporary account, at the time of Rossini's death, his estate yielded revenues of 150,000 francs per year.[18] Apart from some individual legacies in favour of his wife and relatives,[19] Rossini willed his entire estate to the Comune of Pesaro. The inheritance was invested to establish a Liceo Musicale (Conservatory…. The institution has been a major sponsor of the Rossini Opera Festival since its beginning.[21]
  • I haven't checked these yet, but they look fine as a starting point.
• Rossini's estate funded the Prix Rossini … exclusively for French composers and librettists ("exclusivamente per I Francesi").[23]
  • This needs drastic pruning but is OK for a one-line mention in the legacy section, I think. There's a usable source here
• In 1900, Giuseppe Cassioli created a monument to Rossini in the Basilica of Santa Croce, Florence.[24]
  • True

Works etc

• The three Taruskin references...
  • ...are, of course, absolutely fine.
• Rossini himself correctly predicted that his Barber of Seville would continue to find favor with posterity, telling a friend:"One thing I believe I can assure you: that of my works, the second act of Guglielmo Tell, the third act of Otello, and all of il Barbiere di Siviglia will certainly endure." [28]
  • A nice quote, but I can't verify this rendering of it. The version here is quotable, though.

Pray ponder, Tim riley talk 07:28, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

• I thoroughly approve of all your nicely-judged comments. The 'laundry-bill' quote I think could be used in the Music section, rather than the bio. Michotte is not important per se for the article. Re the last quote, I just came across this (which again could go in Music, or maybe Reception) from Donizetti about Tell: "The first and third acts are by Rossini; but the second act is by God."--Smerus (talk) 09:03, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
  • Thank you for that. Decidedly encouraging. I've finished the first draft of the Life section, which can perhaps be trimmed a bit, but at present comes to 3,900 words according to the Wikipedia word-count tool. If the music section turns out to be the same sort of length, then once we add the lead, legacy and recordings paras we'll be in the region of 8,000 – 8,300 words: on a par with the likes of Ravel (8,221), Mendelssohn (8,269), Vaughan Williams (8,320) and Wagner (8,359). But we have bags of leeway. Tim riley talk 19:11, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

just to say....

I haven't forgotten, just completely snowed under for extended writing.....but I am reading.....--Smerus (talk) 10:59, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

No rush at at all. Too darn' hot (ah no, that was Cole Porter, not Rossini) and it's the holiday season in any case. Perhaps we might aim to crank up the machine in September after the rains have come and the schools have gone back. Tangentially, have you noticed that the Overture to the tragic Tancredi consists of variations on that joyous foot-tapper "Lily the Pink" by the Scaffold? Tim riley talk 11:43, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

That belongs in the 'Influence' section maybe.......--Smerus (talk) 15:31, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

You dare! (I've read that the same little tune pops up in Glazunov's Seasons, but I've never noticed it.) Now, away with you, and come back when you're good and ready! No rush whatever. – Tim riley talk 17:19, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

Working space

David, if you prefer to cut and paste the contents of my sandpit into one of yours rather than work extensively on foreign soil, as it were, please feel free. I shall not mind a bit, nor will feel shy about making minor changes to the work-in-progress if it is then resident chez Smerus. Perfectly happy to leave it where is is, of course, if you're OK with that. Tim talk 07:39, 31 August 2018 (UTC)

I've always been happy working abroad, no little-Englander I.......Smerus (talk) 13:14, 31 August 2018 (UTC)

Resumption

Tim, as you see I'm now starting to make desultory progress on this. It turns out to be quite difficult as R's musical style didn't in fact change that much over his effectively brief career in opera. I feel there is a lot to say about his technique and tools and not so much to be said about the operas themselves. This may change however as I gradually roll it all out.Smerus (talk) 18:01, 26 December 2018 (UTC)

Jolly good! Give me a yell if I can be of any help. Tim riley talk 18:04, 26 December 2018 (UTC)

NB As I am ploughing on I realize that there are several repetitions or restatements of elements from the 'life' section, but I think it's going to be easier for me to carry on through and then for us sort the sections out afterwards.-Smerus (talk) 08:32, 30 December 2018 (UTC)

Tim, OK I think I've now covered the waterfront on the music. It needs tidying of course and there are issues of integration of our contributions. I've already done some minor fiddling in the 'Life' as you will see. Still needs a section on reception and influence 1850-today, and a working up of current productions etc. And of course the lead. Over to you for the present. And a Happy New Year. --Smerus (talk) 19:02, 1 January 2019 (UTC)

and now I've cobbled together a draft lede. Just couldn't let it lie.----Smerus (talk) 21:40, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

Ready to roll?

Tim riley, I am fiddling about with this from time to time but I think it could be ready to roll (in the sense of exposing it to the vilification of the cruel world in peer review, e.g.) - what say you? Best, --Smerus (talk) 14:15, 14 January 2019 (UTC)

Smerus. It's looking excellent now! I have resisted the temptation to peer over your shoulder during work in progress, and the Works section comes as a delightful novelty. I suggest the next step is for you to do any more tweaking you want on my Life prose, and I'll do the same to yours in the Works (precious little from a first canter-through). In the event of a disagreement over any tweak we can slug it out here. Does that suit? Tim riley talk 18:03, 14 January 2019 (UTC)

Tim riley Agreed - --Smerus (talk) 08:37, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

Tim riley OK I promise to stop tinkering now, I have just been waking up over the past couple of days thinking 'Gosh, must mention that somewhere'. I have no tweaking left I think now, so am happy to proceed as you think fit.--Smerus (talk) 16:54, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

Smerus – Pray ignore my note (which I'll delete forthwith) about Semiramide being more popular than the Barber in the late 19th. William Mann said so in The Times apropos of a concert perf by Sutherland and Horne in the 1960s, but I've looked at the newspaper archives and they don't really support that claim, though it popped up at the Garden more than just occasionally.

I suggest, to keep the editing record reasonably accurate, that you copy and paste the lead and Works etc into the main space and I'll then do the same with the Life section. Once we've done that, I suggest we go to Peer Review. Tim riley talk 21:28, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

Tim riley. OK have done lead, music and edited external links; over to you for Life, and I will leave it to you to put up for pr.--Smerus (talk) 08:45, 17 January 2019 (UTC)