Sonertje80

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Azeri Armed Forces

Please Sonertje80, place all your comments at the bottom of talk pages, not answering old comments. It's impossible to read if you answer comments from months and years ago. Buckshot06 (talk) 23:23, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Okey will do :-) Sorry for the last action Sonertje88

Sonertje80, I just wanted to inform you that I have removed the text of the NATO/Azerbaijan communique from the Azerbaijani Armed Forces page. This is in line with WP:UNDUE; the whole page structure is bent out of place by inserting the whole text of the communique. The proper place for this kind of full document is Wikisource, where you could mount the document if you wish. What you need to do for the Azeri Armed Forces page is summarise the communique into one or two paragraphs, listing only the important information.

I should also say that I disagree with your estimate of improved Azeri military capability since 2008, but I have no real time to do the research to disapprove what you have written right now. Please be aware, I may change it in future, and we can, as always, discuss matters on the talk page. Kind regards and happy new year 2011, Buckshot06 (talk) 04:01, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Hello Buckshot, yes for me, I do some research but it is very hard to find documents about the Azeri Armed Forces. In fact, you have to see Azeri army in war to make proper speech about it. You may disagree about the improvement in the Azeri army but you also have to disagree about the very bad situation what people writes (overrated perspective without evidence). Also just buying the Smerch MLRS will not give Azeri ground forces a significant firepower unless they arewell trained how to use it. So I changed the Smerch system to the word 'hardware and training, IPAP', etc. How does Blandy know about the Azeri army issues? Was he a spy? Why you believe just 1 document? All western countries knows very well that Azeri armed forces have great potential today even Armenian defence ministry is aware of this so it should not be hidden that the Azeri's just made progress in readiness within a few years. Thats why I just changed it, and not deleted it.

The NATO section was updated because I think they are far enough now and possibly they are able to join the NATO very soon, at least they are getting towards full compliancy with NATO standards today. Okey later I will just add a short summary of it. Thanks. Sonertje80 (talk) 00:07, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Hi Sonertje80, thanks for your response. Blandy and the other members of the Conflict Studies Research Centre were all expert Russian speakers, had access to official British military information, probably including intelligence reports. They also read everything available on the conflict in all Russian and other language sources. Please read the references in the Blandy document. To give you a flavour of the public sources they used, here's refs 1-20:

1 http://www.crisisgroup.org/home/index.cfm?id=5157&1=1 Europe Report No. 187, 14 November 2007 “Nagorno-Karabakh: Risking War” Executive Summary and Recommendations.

2 http://www.politcom.ru/article.php?id=5818 Politcom.ru, 6 March 2008, “Trublentnost’ v zone “prekrashcheniya ognya” by Sergey Markedonov.

3 http://www.crisisgroup.org/home/index.cfm?id=5157&1=1 Europe Report No. 187, 14 November 2007 “Nagorno-Karabakh: Risking War”.

4 http://www.politcom.ru/article.php?id=5818 Politcom.ru, 6 March 2008.

5 Ibid.

6 http://www.zerkalo.az/ruric.php?id=30614 Armeyskoye Zerkalo 23 February 2008 “Armiya gotova k nastupleniyu” by Dzh Sumerinli.

7 http://www.politcom.ru/article.php?id=5818 Politcom.ru, 6 March 2008.

8 http://www.ng.ru/cis/2008-03-03/1_erevan.html?mthree=1 Nezavisimaya Gazeta 3 March 2008, “Chrezvychaynyy Yerevan” by Yuriy Simonyan.

9 http://www.crisisgroup.org/home/index.cfm?id=5157&1=1 Europe Report No. 187, 14 November 2007, page 1, note 3 “The territory consists of five Azerbaijani districts (Kel’bajar, Lachin, Kubatly, Zangelan, Jebrail and part of two others Fizuli and Agdam and has 7,409 sq km. Nagorno-Karabakh authorities consider the Mardakert and Martuni districts (327 sq km), which were part of the autonomous oblast, as well as the prewar Shahumanian district and Getashen settlement (701 sq km) of Azerbaijan, as being under Azerbaijani “occupation.”

10 http://nvo.ng.ru/wars/2007-09-21/2_karabah.html Nezavisimoye Voyennoye Obozreniye 21 September 2007 “Azerbaidzhan gotovitsya k ‘osvoboditel’nomu pokhodu” by Viktor Myasnikov.

11 http://www.ng.ru/cis/2007-11-28/7_serdukov.html Nezavisimaya Gazeta 28 November 2007,“Abiyev: voyennyy konflikt mezhdu Armeniyey i Azerbaydzhanom “Ves’ma veroyaten”” by Sokhbet Mamedov.

12 Zerkalo, 29 February 2008, page 1 “Zaghnannyye v tupik” by R. Mirkadyrov.

13 http://www.panarmenian.net/news/eng/?nid=25406 Pan/Armenian.Net “ANCA welcome US stand on Azerbaijan UN resolution”.

14 http://www.ng.ru/cis/2008-03-17/8_karabah.html Nezavisimaya Gazeta 17 March 2008, “Rossii mozhet byt’ pred’yavlen minskiy sche” by Svetlana Gamova, Sokhbet Mamedov.

15 http://jamestown.org/edm/article.php?article_id=2372918 Eurasia Daily Monitor 26 March 2008, “Azerbaiajan’s releations with Minsk Group hit a new low” by Fariz Ismailzade.

16 http://www.ng.ru/cis/2008-03-21/9_armenia.html Nezavisimaya Gazeta 21 March 2008, “Kocharyan: U Nagornogo Karabakha bol’she prav na nezavisimost, chem Kosovo”, no author.

17 Ibid.

18 http://www.politcom.ru/article.php?id=5901 Politcom.ru 26 March 2008, “Armenia: Novyy politicheskiy peysazh posle bitvy” by Sergey Markedonov.

19 http://kavkaz-uzel.ru/printnews/news/id/1203040.html Kavkazskiy Uzel/Novosti, 6 December 2007. “Armenia/Obshchestvo – Svyshe 70% naseleniya Armenii samymi vazhnymi voprosami dlya strany schitayut sotsial’-ekonomicheskiye”. Sample size 1200 people.

20 C W Blandy “Azerbaijan: Permanently Between Scylla and Charybdis?” CSRC Caucasus Series 06/33, August 2006, page 4.

I assume you can read Russian, so please check out these sources for yourself; I cannot. Also, having looked at the references you linked to support your statements, they do not actually say what you have made them say. Nowhere in the linked internet news articles do they actually say that Azerbaijan's military capability has improved in the way you claim. I will remove them, probably within the next two weeks.

The thing is that CSRC's statements are a WP:V verifiable source, while you are claiming the news article sources say things they don't actually write.

Please feel free to respond here or on my talkpage; I will take no action immediately. My concern is the truth as reported through verifiable sources as per WP:V. I know this may be painful for you or others as patriotic Azerbaijanis, but on the other hand, I'm getting attacked by Turks for being pre-Armenian !!

Please accept my personal good wishes. Kind regards Buckshot06 (talk) 08:49, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Wauw you placed a lot of links. Still not read them but I will do this weekend. For Russian language links, pfff I can barely read English so forget about Russian :-D hehe. I speak a lot of Turks here in the Netherlands but I am not Azeri nor Turkish. I know very well about their patriotic feelings but to say one thing, all people have to understand something when their armies have corruption or bribery. Also the US Army has this problems let stay new armed forces of recent independent nations. Also Dutch army has its own problems, especially in equipment maintenance, low readiness where only 1/3 is battle prepared. For example our F-16's, only the half is capable of flying and just a few are operational. Non-operation F-16's are being canibalized for spare parts. Can you imagine this? So comming back to Azeri armed forces, they have problems too, but looking to 1995 and today, there are big improvements in the training quality and readiness. All people knows this if their defence budget has raised more than 10 times. Turkish Armed Forces has reorganized the Azeri Armed Forces (in 1993-2006) and is still training Azeri officers in Turkey. For me, ill prepared is a big word when used to explain that the Azeri's have still difficulties in their army but I think it is more realistic to combine the words 'well trained army and corrupt personel serving in the Azerbaijani army' instead of 'absolutely not prepared army'. At least, most Azerbaijani equipment is operational and high ranking officers knows exactly what to do in case of war besides the bribery and corruption in the lower mid-high and lower ranking personel. There is also bribery in the Turkish Armed Forces, Royal Dutch Armed Forces, US Army, Russian Army, etc.. We can talk very long time about this issue. I will read the links you posted so please give me some time to read. Have a nice weekend! Sonertje80 (talk) 13:37, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Btw, I found this article. Whatever it is neutral, it seems to be but I think this fits my opinion too. Blandy stated ill prepared and unable to mount large scale warfare, this was in 2004. Still, in 2007, the army has made some progress in training and reorganized their armed forces, still lacks capability in mounting large scale warfare. Just read this please: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/azerbaijan/army.htm Sonertje80 (talk) 15:08, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Thanks Sonertje. You have to remember where Globalsecurity.org gets its data from - they copy from everywhere they can find on the web, without attribution. Here it's probably from the latest Library of Congress Country Studies with some copying from us - see that list of corps at the bottom? But it's reasonable data if we can locate the original source. Anyway, I will run down the latest Library of Congress doco and at least post the link here. Best regards Buckshot06 (talk) 19:43, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Sonertje, I've found what appears to be GS.org's original source. See here: http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?frd/cstdy:@field%28DOCID+az0068%29 and following pages, or http://memory.loc.gov/frd/cs/aztoc.html at the very bottom under national security. We should add a link and start deciding which bits of this data we need to add in.

Now, on your opinion. Yes, they have of course made progress in training and reorganising their army. No, I believe they would lose if they went up against the NKR. NKR would fight for survival, and be very motivated because of it. Remember Israel in 1948; surrounded and attacked by all the Arab states, they still won. Corruption/bribery? Maybe in the TAF, and Russian Army. I know there is systematic corruption in the Russian Armed Forces. I do not believe there are large numbers of officers in the Royal Dutch Army and U.S. Army selling state assets and putting the money in their own pockets.

Welcome your thoughts and ideas. Let's focus on what we can agree upon and improving the article, not what we disagree upon. Kind regards Buckshot06 (talk) 19:52, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Do you think Azeri officers selling assets to other countries just for money? I can not believe that but after the collapse of the Soviet union, countries sold assets to tribes in Africa and other countries. I mean bribery that they want a better job or position, safe place or higher salary. Bribe your commander and he will give you a better assessment so you can promote for free. You say that Arabs lost the war against the Jews settled in today's Israel. You compare apple's with pears now. Israeli people are trained to Western standards, along they have their own doctrines and methods to train their personell. Israel has it's own research institutes and their armed forces have their own experts researching new war methods. Arabs do have nothing. They just bought arms from the Soviets and just use them. No training, no doctrine, no motivation, not any people looking forward what will happen in the future. They have no war spirit and just ran away when guns are aimed to them. Comming back to Azerbaijan, they have restructured their armed forces to introduced combined arms tactics recently. Azerbaijan Armed Forces have limited heavy lift capability what makes them unable to mount armored assault in a short time. Most of their equipment is in operational status but personel lacks training especially in expert level. They have spare parts and are able to repair assets in the facilities. The biggest problem of the Azeri army is that they lack combined arms tactics. They have introduced it but is still not in effect what makes the Azeri armed forces slow in reaction. If you compare Armenian army, they have much of the hardware what needs maintenance immediatelly. Most hardware are in terrible condition and the economic crisis affected the size of their armed forces what reduced to only 10.000 men in high readiness, 30.000 of them are in low readiness or reserve personel. Armenian army has no heavy lift capability what makes them unable to mount a medium- and large scale operations and only light assets are available for transport. Armenian army lacks modern battlefield tactics where they can not move their units rapidly. Armenian army can mount only a unit of battalion strength Task Force with light assets only. If you look to Azerbaijani air force, they can give moderate air support to the Azerbaijani ground forces. Azerbaijani armed forces have good night warfare equipment in their modernized SuperHinds, AFV's and infantry. Armenian armed forces does have limited air support without CAP (combat air patrol) capability and/or escort what makes them easy prey for the Azeri air force's fighter jets.

If you read my opinion, please don't feel I attacked you. We both have very different opinions what makes it more intresting for me as all Turkish or Azeri people only say 'we kick armenian asses in Karabagh' (but how?). And are becomming agressive if you say that the Azeri army have some potential but needs far more professional trained personel. Next day I don't read in the news that Azerbaijan just assaulted Armenian frontline units to get Karabak back to Azeri control.

I have done some research (not much) in Armenian army and more in Azeri armed forces and concluded that the Armenian army would have a better performance in the defense than attack. Where the Azeri army would win easily only if they have military personel trained to Turkish standards (eg, complex land forces like regular infantry and commando-infantry, commando-infantry is infantry with much heavier training and commando training). If not Turkish or NATO standards, they can win only when more discipline is gained and training is brought to a much higher level, still they will loose a lot of men despite the winning ressult on the other hand. But the statement that Azerbaijani armed forces is very weak is not true. It it was true, Armenian army would continue to get the whole Karabakh and invaded deeper to the east.Sonertje80 (talk) 18:23, 23 January 2011 (UTC) About Global Defence, there are a lot of this kind some more professional, some of them more childish, very few with realistic figures. Still, the result of war will explain who's army is better. As before it seems that most people have different opinion (you and me for example) but very few persons knows exacly what is happening in the Azeri armed forces and thats the highest ranking officer. Bribery or not, army is just a corporation too.Sonertje80 (talk) 18:42, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

Your recent edits

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Hi

Hi, good job on your latest edits. Could you please take a look at the Azerbaijani Air Force page. According to media reports, Azerbaijan will manufacture 60 UAV in 2011, see here. However this is not reflected in the page. Do you have feedback on this issue? Neftchi (talk) 15:27, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

You may post it in the Defense Industry section as they will be produces yet and are not in use by the Azeri air forces. There are a lot of things that could be added, like the Cobra APC's and new artillery systems. If you have seen the Azerbaijani Armed Forces day on TV, then you have seen new hardware including 8 Mi-24 SuperHind Mk.3 with its nose mounted 20mm helmet aimed gun and Thermal viewers, BMP-3's OTR-21 Tochka-U systems, etc.. All were deleted in the past by some pro-Armenian childerens so we have to add them again. You may add your section first and I will add the other land systems. Regards Soner Sonertje80 (talk) 16:09, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

I dont know exacly when the vandals happened but you can always restore proper information by viewing the history page of an article, (see here). Perhaps there you can find what you were looking for. Neftchi (talk) 08:38, 7 July 2011 (UTC)