Sailor Titan

Hi, Sailor Titan,

Thanks for your comments on the manga talk page. I added some comments there, but wanted to add them here as well.

I agree with you that Wiki articles on manga and anime should reflect Japanese usage. But we're writing for Americans, and we need to deal with US usages as well. For example, when US readers say that AzuDai is shoujo, they aren't wrong; they've adapted the word in ways that differ from the original Japanese. It just works that way. And TokyoPop also omits the macron on "shojo" -- I cited a reference on the manga talk page. Languages aren't fixed in stone, but shift and change.

I really wish that other people would contribute more to this article. It's not me monopolizing the article -- there had been almost no activity for quite some time when I started work on it back in September with some other people, notably Peregrine Fisher. Maybe you will add some new material, I hope?

Timothy Perper (talk) 04:53, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Hopefully soon. One thing that seems to be missing from my scan of the manga page is a reference to drawing conventions of manga whereby Japanese people often look like westerns (ie, blonde hair/blue eyes even when they're supposed to be Japanese...a good example is how even though Kenshin is clearly supposed to be Japanese, he has red hair in Rurouni Kenshin.) But I don't know of a good reference off the top of my head. I know the convention comes from Tezuka, but I'm not sure where to find a good book/webpage that mentions it.

Actually, it was the hope of finding a reference for this that led me to the manga page to begin with, when I saw This Review of With the Light on Amazon and commented on the art conventions that this person, who had never read a manga before this one, was not familiar with. I was hoping to find a page that had more information on it in Wiki, but unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a section in the manga page. I could start one immediately, but that would require writing unsourced material. On the other hand, Wiki does have a policy of "informaton unsourced is better than no information" by my understanding, though that will knock manga's chances of becoming a "good article." --Sailor Titan 19:03, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

It'd be great if you'd contribute! But a caution about citations — actually, Wiki has a quite stringent policy about statements, which means that statements all need sources (citations) to external material (see Wikipedia:Verifiability). If you click on the blue link or on Wikipedia:Citing sources or Wikipedia:Reliable sources you'll find the policies. Wiki also has stringent policies about no original research — click this link too: Wikipedia:No original research — that says that unsourced material can be challenged and deleted.

In fact, there are flags to alert readers to these problems, like this one -->

Yes, many people ignore these policies, but the results are never good. May I suggest that you get into the habit of sourcing everything you add to any article you edit?

Basically, the reason for these policies is to prevent Wiki from deteriorating into a mass of sheer opinion and hearsay. Often, such statements are well-intended, but contain a point of view, something that Wiki policy frowns on (see Wikipedia:Neutral point of view). Some of the worst edit wars are fought over these POV opinions, and they're a fruitless waste of time.

One result can be quite puzzling. I know it puzzled me when I began editing Wiki a while ago. "But," one says, "how do I find sources and references for something I know is true, but can't seem to locate a source for?" First, try the internet. Use Google with a variety of different search terms, and also try searching Google Book with a variety of search terms. Don't give up if you don't find something in 30 seconds! Keep searching and eventually you'll find material on the web about just about anything, including the physical appearance of characters in manga. Second, try some of the leading books about manga. These include books by Frederik L. Schodt and by Paul Gravett, and others are listed in the bibliography of the manga article. Third, ask people on listserves if they know of any references to books or websites. Wiki policy prohibits citing listserves or blogs themselves as sources (such statements can be deleted by someone else as "non-verifiable" or "poorly sourced") but they can lead to citations you can use. Fourth, use the manga Talk page to ask if anyone knows of any good sources.

I suspect that there's a good deal of material on the web about the physical appearance of characters in manga and anime. It may take a couple of days to find, but it will be worth it. It's very satisfying (I think) to nail something down like that to a good set of external references.

I also recommend posting your plans and ideas to the manga talk page before you actually make any edits. It's called Discuss first, then edit. It's very useful in obtaining consensus (see Wikipedia:Consensus), which means support and agreement among the regular readers and contributors to the manga article and discussion page. An edit that has consensus is much, much less likely to be challenged or deleted by someone than edits that come in out of the blue sky without any consensus. Also people will contribute other ideas, some useful, some less so, but these comments will give you an idea of what other people think and know.

Editing Wiki can be a lot of fun, but it's also a challenge and can be a lot of work. And I really do urge you to get into the habit of sourcing just about anything you add or change as an editor.

Hope to hear more from you!

Timothy Perper (talk) 16:11, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

In case you're interested, here are some websites. It's a tricky area, because it touches on racial stereotypes.

http://www.geishablog.com/uncategorized/the-western-appearance-of-animemanga-characters/

http://www.oocities.com/hamchoba/animex/face.htm

http://www.aasianst.org/absts/2003abst/Japan/sessions.htm

For this website, search the website for Kota Inoue, who has an abstract about Tanizaki Jun’ichirô and his novel Naomi, whose heroine Naomi is described as Western looking. The issue is shown to be very complicated. Check the Wiki website for the novel also. The Wiki entry on Speed Racer also comments about the "Western appearance" of the characters.

Hope it helps. Timothy Perper (talk) 21:30, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

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