Pcassitti
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You can find me at my user page or talk page for any questions. Happy editing, and we'll see ya 'round. 
Joe I 18:58, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
history of AA/ST
editI replied. Where are you from, by the way? You need some work on your user page. :-) Icsunonove 07:01, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Prontuario
editI tried to read Tolomei's introductin to the Prontuario. See my comments at the talk page there. Sorry if I gave the impression that I agree with his views. Some editors have promoted the idea that the Italian names are somehow Italic and therefore historical. I do not agree with this. Reading Tolomei's writings is useful in order to understand where these ideas originate. The fact that the area was ladin-speaking in the middle ages does not make it historically Italian, as Tolomei and his friends thought, and as some still think today. Andreas (T) 19:57, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Can I join in too, since I have an interest? I personally disagree with what Tolomei did on its face value; I still need to read the Prontuario and understand more though to make a final judgment. I certainly won't base it on Wikipedia articles. I do think the case that the region was majority Ladin (and Latin)-speaking should be recognized though. It seems to be lost in the propaganda, like when I saw that music video on YouTube declaring AA/ST is "still German". This is a crude view, isn't it? By recognizing the roots as Ladin, it doesn't mean others don't have an equal right to stay or anything like this. I've never heard the Ladin-speaking people of T-AA/ST ever say such a thing against the immigrants or the long-term German settlers. The region AA/ST is historically Roman/Italic and Germanic; everyone has their place. However, to me a Ladin or Roman name is Italic (i.e., of Italy). Variations in spellings, vowels, etc. are nothing more than semantics. :-) For example, with the names we found in the Val di Non. Is the Italian Fondo and Coredo of Italy, but the Nones-Ladin Fon and Còret not?? Like Nova, it was originally Nova for centuries. The German Nofen is derived from Nova. That Tolomei apparently took Nova Teutonica and made it Nova Ponente; well it is still always Nova/Nofen! :-) Anyway, note that recognizing the real historical origins of names in the region isn't the same as agreeing with the views of Tolomei (which I don't even know yet). Icsunonove 05:22, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- I don't agree with the statement that ladin is italic. In Switzerland you have a clear distinction between rhaeto-romanic and italian, which are spoken in areas which have been culturally well defined since prehistory. Same goes for South Tyrol. The problem are not the romanic names, of which as you correctly point out there are many surviving to this day, but italian names created by the fascist regime. Those are two very different things. In order to be able to appraise the romanic past (and in some areas present) of South Tyrol, first you have to do away with the fascist inventions. Only then can there be a discussion which is not tainted by ideological bias.
As for Tolomei, besides being a nationalist and fascist, he was also a poor scholar. Most of the work was done by others, since it would have taken years for one man to collect 16.000 place-names and give them a proper translation. In fact, many translations are plain ridiculous. I am not talking about the names of the big villages, which is reasonable to assume had a romanic or, farther south, an italian name commonly used, but about the names of little fields, pastures, tiny villages made up of three houses, castles (which definitely never had any romanic name), etc., which have nonetheless all meticulously been translated. Examples for this work are "steinerner Steg" (stone bridge) translated to "ponte romano", or "picolein" (already a romanic name) italianized to "piccolino", to name just a few of the many thousand invented names. Pcassitti 06:02, 31 August 2007 (UTC)- The thing is I'm not clear really how many of his inventions still stand. If you look at towns like Welsberg-Taisten, these are originally Germanic names. You can see this in the surrounding villages of this Northeasterly portion of BZ. However, if you look at Eppan (Appiano), the name Appiano was the original. Maybe it was Apiano once, then Apian, and Apiann, I don't know.. but the basic name is there. Anyway, when I hear Italian or I hear Nones (i.e. Ladin), I consider them both languages of the overall culture of Italy. I don't know what else to feel really. They are Rheato-Romance, yes, but Neapolitan is "Italo-Dalmation"; as is Tuscan (i.e. Standard Italian). Venetian is "Gallo Italian", like Emiliano-Romagnolo. So do Tuscan and Neapolitan get to be languages of Italy (i.e., Italic) only? Or does Venetian count? Emiliano-Romagnolo, no? Is Sicilian more "Italian" than Friulian? I just don't believe there is a measure of Italianess, lets say. The culture of the peninsula is a family with many different relatives. :-) We can agree to disagree, I definitely respect your opinion. Mine is simply that these languages are of all languages of Italy (i.e. history in Latin and this peninsula). It is the same that Hokkien, Hakka, Min, Wu, Cantonese, Mandarin are Chinese languages. But Mandarin == Chinese. later! Icsunonove 07:40, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Fair enough, but then german is a language of the italic peninsula as well, as is franco-provencal. And Rhaeto-romance languages where spoken north of the alps as well. It makes no sense to attribute nationality through geography. And Nones is not Ladin. There might be something left of the original language, but if you compare it with the rhaeto-romanic of Switzerland or with Ladin you can see that it has been strongly italianized. the solution to preserve "romanity" in South Tyrol can't in any case be reverting names to the original latin form. If Eppan goes back to a romanic root, why change it? It already is romanic. On the same line it is only because of ideological reasons that the italian name "Stérz" for "Sterzing" was substituted with Vipiteno. The solution to the toponomastic problem would be simple: abolish all the names which didn't exist before Tolomei created them. A lot of research has been done into the subject, also by italians (for example Fabrizio Bartaletti of the university of Genoa), so it would be a feasible and in my opinion good thing to do. Pcassitti 11:27, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Well, I'm saying that Appiano/Appian has been the name in the local Italian languages. It wasn't invented from Eppan to Appian(o) by that guy. With your example of Stérz/Sterzing, then obviously I would agree with keeping the Italian name as Stérz; I have no interest in make-believe names in TN or BZ. I just don't find many city names in BZ right now that have this Vipiteno sort of invention/improvisation. I've found examples of names that were in place from the 1920s until after WW2, and then were (thankfully) dropped. Regarding Nones and Ladin, what you think is not the case. When I hear people speak Romansch in Switzerland, it sounds very similar to Nones. Look at these links when you have a chance [1][2]. In Trentino, the languages Nones (Val di Non), Solardo (Val di Sole), etc., etc. are all part of the same Ladin family. You make a good point about what is or isn't Italic. I don't often think about what is not Italian, to be honest. I've always had the mindset to try and be all inclusive. That is why I see Italy simply as a patchwork of similar cultures and history. I mean, are the people from Naples more "Italian" than those from Trentino and Veneto, or visa versa? One time that user Emes, who is from a Ladin background, said his grandfathers would roll in their grave to hear they are Italian. But this begs the question. Who are these Italians he feels they don't want to be associated with? Where exactly are the Italians located? :-) Sometimes I feel it is just a racism between people from the same penninsula; not wanting to admit their cousins in the neighboring valley, province, region, etc. Anyway, talk to you later. :-) Icsunonove 07:49, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
- Fair enough, but then german is a language of the italic peninsula as well, as is franco-provencal. And Rhaeto-romance languages where spoken north of the alps as well. It makes no sense to attribute nationality through geography. And Nones is not Ladin. There might be something left of the original language, but if you compare it with the rhaeto-romanic of Switzerland or with Ladin you can see that it has been strongly italianized. the solution to preserve "romanity" in South Tyrol can't in any case be reverting names to the original latin form. If Eppan goes back to a romanic root, why change it? It already is romanic. On the same line it is only because of ideological reasons that the italian name "Stérz" for "Sterzing" was substituted with Vipiteno. The solution to the toponomastic problem would be simple: abolish all the names which didn't exist before Tolomei created them. A lot of research has been done into the subject, also by italians (for example Fabrizio Bartaletti of the university of Genoa), so it would be a feasible and in my opinion good thing to do. Pcassitti 11:27, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- The thing is I'm not clear really how many of his inventions still stand. If you look at towns like Welsberg-Taisten, these are originally Germanic names. You can see this in the surrounding villages of this Northeasterly portion of BZ. However, if you look at Eppan (Appiano), the name Appiano was the original. Maybe it was Apiano once, then Apian, and Apiann, I don't know.. but the basic name is there. Anyway, when I hear Italian or I hear Nones (i.e. Ladin), I consider them both languages of the overall culture of Italy. I don't know what else to feel really. They are Rheato-Romance, yes, but Neapolitan is "Italo-Dalmation"; as is Tuscan (i.e. Standard Italian). Venetian is "Gallo Italian", like Emiliano-Romagnolo. So do Tuscan and Neapolitan get to be languages of Italy (i.e., Italic) only? Or does Venetian count? Emiliano-Romagnolo, no? Is Sicilian more "Italian" than Friulian? I just don't believe there is a measure of Italianess, lets say. The culture of the peninsula is a family with many different relatives. :-) We can agree to disagree, I definitely respect your opinion. Mine is simply that these languages are of all languages of Italy (i.e. history in Latin and this peninsula). It is the same that Hokkien, Hakka, Min, Wu, Cantonese, Mandarin are Chinese languages. But Mandarin == Chinese. later! Icsunonove 07:40, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- I don't agree with the statement that ladin is italic. In Switzerland you have a clear distinction between rhaeto-romanic and italian, which are spoken in areas which have been culturally well defined since prehistory. Same goes for South Tyrol. The problem are not the romanic names, of which as you correctly point out there are many surviving to this day, but italian names created by the fascist regime. Those are two very different things. In order to be able to appraise the romanic past (and in some areas present) of South Tyrol, first you have to do away with the fascist inventions. Only then can there be a discussion which is not tainted by ideological bias.
hey
editHey Pcassitti, are you based in Innsbruck? Hometown, or what? I really like that town. :-) Icsunonove 06:39, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
- Glad to hear that :) This is where I study. Pcassitti 06:43, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
- Where are you from, if I may ask? One of my favorite (if not the most) train rides is going down from Germany to Italy via Innsbruck, Brenner, Bolzano, and then on to Trentino. Of course going across Austria East-West from Vienna is great too, but I'm a bit biased to the former. :-) Icsunonove 06:50, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
- I'm from Bolzano, originally. Yes, those are good routes, travelling by train is in my opinion the best way to move around Europe. It is very scenic, relaxing, and ecological. Pcassitti 15:24, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
- Where are you from, if I may ask? One of my favorite (if not the most) train rides is going down from Germany to Italy via Innsbruck, Brenner, Bolzano, and then on to Trentino. Of course going across Austria East-West from Vienna is great too, but I'm a bit biased to the former. :-) Icsunonove 06:50, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
hey
editFirst of all, good to hear from you. :-) Hope your Summer has started well. Yeah, I saw that. I was able to move it back. I've spent more time learning about the region recently, and it makes my opinion even more that care should be taken to respect the Italic/Germanic culture of this very nice area. Anyway, give me some time to look at the edits as well. Can you point out some of the specifics? Icsunonove (talk) 18:48, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
ST/AA
editHello, and thanks for your invitation to contribute. It would take some time for me to figure out where the new editor is heading. Either way, the article lacks crispness, it contains a lot of opinionated statements that are not properly sourced. Hard to avoid this in a wiki environment with such a hot topic. I do not want to get involved right now, maybe later.
If you want to do something useful, maybe you want to read Ettore Tolomei's introduction to the Prontuario[3] and summrize the main points. Likewise, I would like to know what Tolomei's modern critics Fremke, Steininger, Kramer, Bartaletti have to say, as well as what is contained in the Tolomei issue published by Museo Storico in Trento. Do you have access to these publications? Cheers, Andreas (T) 20:55, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
- Can you find out if the text by Bartaletti on "Geografia, toponomastica e identità culturale: il caso del Sudtirolo" at pages 37-61in this publiction is the same as the one with the same title in Miscellanea di storia delle esplorazioni XXVII, Genova. 2002, pp. 269-315? This would be important for proper citation. The article in Quaderia Padani is easily accessible and therefore interesting for everybody who wants to know more about the issue. Andreas (T) 00:18, 4 July 2008 (UTC)