User talk:Mr KEBAB/Archive 14

Your English accent

Hi I just wondered now if you are able to tell me some features of your English accent. Is it rhotic, flapped or with specific vowel qualities? — ^{they call me} AWESOMEmeeos ... [ˈɔɪ̯]! 12:42, 16 January 2018 (UTC)

@Awesomemeeos: I have no problem with talking to you but if you want to decide for me whether I should reply or not (and where) then we haven't been communicating clearly.

The accent is fully rhotic and mostly based on General American. I do try to flap my /t, d/ but the allophone isn't very predictable so I probably still sound Mid-Atlantic (and I don't really care about that).

The vowel phonemes are /i, ʉ, ɪ, ʊ, e, ɵ, ɛ, ə, æ, ɐ, ɑ, oɪ, aɪ, æʊ/. /e, ɵ/ are typically diphthongal [eɪ, ɵʊ], /æ/ is [ɛ̃ə̃ ~ ẽə̃] before nasals, /ɐ/ can be as high as [ə] and /i, ʉ, e, ɵ/ are [iə, uə, eə, oə] before /l/. /æʊ/ varies between [æʊ] and [aʊ]. /ɵ/ is retracted to [o] before /r/. There's no /ɔ/, just /ɑ/.

If there's anything else you'd wanna know then ask. Mr KEBAB (talk) 15:26, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

@Awesomemeeos: Also, you keep forgetting that stressed syllables in English can't ever end in a checked vowel. Please watch that. Mr KEBAB (talk) 15:56, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, I learnt from that edit you've made. How strong is your rhoticity, what is its quality, and how clear/velarised is the /l/? Also, how many dialects does the Longman pronunciation dictionary have? — ^{they call me} AWESOMEmeeos ... [ˈɔɪ̯]! 22:29, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

@Awesomemeeos: Sorry for the delay. My accent is strongly rhotic and that sometimes even retroflexes the neighbouring alveolars (as in card or first). /l/ is rather dark but that varies, coda /l/ is more velarized than onset /l/.

Two, obviously. RP and GA. Mr KEBAB (talk) 11:10, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

But what about my accent? Aussie? They could have included South African and NZ too. — ^{they call me} AWESOMEmeeos ... [ˈɔɪ̯]! 12:08, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

@Awesomemeeos: Are you familiar with the Macquarie Dictionary? Mr KEBAB (talk) 13:49, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

Yes I do, I have their books at home, but I just hoped that the LPD also had them. Thanks for your answer anyway. — ^{they call me} AWESOMEmeeos ... [ˈɔɪ̯]! 21:21, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

@Awesomemeeos: The demand for a pronunciation dictionary for AuE isn't nearly as big as the demand for a pronunciation dictionary for RP and GA. Generally, RP transcriptions should be enough for you, as they are for South Africans and Kiwis. Just read unstressed /ɪ/ as /ə/, (some?) /əri/ as /ɔːri/ etc. If you're looking for pronunciations of foreign names and places, check [1]. I don't own it myself, but many people have recommended it to me.

Despite all the differences, the General Australian accent is pretty close to RP, I'd say about as close as General South African. If these were Norwegian dialects, they'd probably belong to the same dialect group. Mr KEBAB (talk) 12:38, 14 February 2018 (UTC)

Let me make a few corrections about how Aussies pronounce ;) Unstressed /ɪ/ is predominantly [ə], but I realised that this weak vowel merging thing doesn't occur in -ing (although it does in vernacular -in'), in words ending in -age like message, garage (as in 'petrol station'), marriage etc. There is often variation for the suffixes -ory as well as -ary, -ery, -mony, -berry, -bury in whether it's reduced or not. I kinda have a split for these, with the words I use more often being reduced. Bear in mind that the trap-bath split, being clichéd in RP, is not complete, i.e. Aussies like me have in words like path, aunt and master, but not in example, chant and answer, with the latter being interstingly a long [æː]. Trans- is almost always [æː].

I kinda get offended when people compare or generalise accent like that or have misconceptions of our accent tbh. It's not the same as the British accents. — ^{they call me} AWESOMEmeeos ... [ˈɔɪ̯]! 09:54, 15 February 2018 (UTC)

@Awesomemeeos: I'm aware that the pre-velar vowel is [ɪ], but are there any minimal pairs? The same with /dʒ/ - can /ə/ occur before it? I guess anything can happen when we include compounds though...

Yeah, I suspected that. I should've said my list wasn't complete.

There's nothing to be offended about. I said it's pretty close, not the same. It makes a lot of sense to group GA, General White SAE and GNZE as Southern English Englishes. They're non-rhotic, they have a three-way contrast between PALM, LOT and THOUGHT, they strongly contrast FOOT and STRUT as well as FOOT and GOOSE, STRUT is consistently open, they have TRAP that is almost always more front than PALM and many speakers exhibit at least parts of the London Vowel Shift (though this is changing and is extremely variable in South Africa). The bad-lad split is also a London innovation, not an Australian one.

Bear in mind that AuE is just Cockney from centuries ago that evolved on its own. In that sense, there's literally nothing non-British about it. It's an old British dialect spoken on another continent. Indeed, all native dialects of English are historically British, but that's just stating the obvious. Look at the similarities between vowels of the General (or at least Broad) Australian accent and Cockney - they're very similar, in some aspects virtually the same. Someone once said that Australian English is basically Cockney mixed with RP and GA, and I agree with that. Mr KEBAB (talk) 12:34, 15 February 2018 (UTC)

Just a follow-up from the UK English discussion, I do agree, cockney is comparable to Broad Australian English, with the added onglide /ə/ in the GOOSE and FLEECE vowels (I have them there too). However, I do find the glottal stop being put in nearly every mid and final plosive in cockney, characterising it as a little bit ugly. This is rare in Australia and if used, only ever with /t/ (even there we just flap it).

On the other hand, I shall give you two videos to enable to hear what cockney sounds like in everyday society ;). The first video is a comedy interview of a 'cockney politician' (although the interviewer has a foreign accent), while the second is from a movie. It's a bit vulgar and has violence but very effective if you want to hear full-on cockney for over a minute :) — ^{they call me} AWESOMEmeeos ... [ˈɔɪ̯]! 07:35, 16 February 2018 (UTC)

Northern Cities Vowel Shift follow-up

Hi, concerning what you've raised about a week or so ago about reading this accent, I already had some time ago, that's why I brought up those audio files from the Great Lakes! Seguing from there, I just found a guy speaking about this accent, in this accent (read the comments!). He goes on talking about his background and perception of English, and somewhat comparing with other American dialects, and eventually talking about his consonants.

I haven't really picked up any differences (they may be too subtle for an Aussie ear!), but since you've deliberately learnt the IPA of GenAm, maybe you could pick it up... — ^{they call me} AWESOMEmeeos ... [ˈɔɪ̯]! 10:04, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

@Awesomemeeos: I can't really hear any strong NC accent in his video. His cot and caught vowels seem to be pretty close to each other ([ä] vs. [ɑ]), which is rather interesting. I can't normally hear the distinction by the way, not the way most Americans produce it. I can hear it in your accent or in Estuary/RP, but not when most Americans speak (those who use [oə] for caught are obviously in the minority).

His /ɪ, ɛ, ʌ/ are more or less within the GA norm.

In 4:15 he says [hɛəd] for had. This is NCVS, but I can't hear this diphthong as distinct from [æ] if I don't concentrate very hard. To me, only [iə ~ ɪə ~ eə] used for /æ/ outside of pre-nasal contexts sound odd, but [hɛəd] sounds pretty normal to me.

He sometimes uses [aːɛ] for /aɪ/, which sounds pretty southern.

The Ethiopian he mentions at about 7:30 sounds rather ignorant. Blaming your own listening skills on the way natives speak? ... Mr KEBAB (talk) 11:39, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

How come had seems normal but the rest of the pre-non-nasal tensing is not? — ^{they call me} AWESOMEmeeos ... [ˈɔɪ̯]! 11:48, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

@Awesomemeeos: I mean that the [ɛə] allophone sounds close to [æ], but [iə ~ ɪə ~ eə] don't. It's not about any particular word. Mr KEBAB (talk) 11:50, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

Oh I see. — ^{they call me} AWESOMEmeeos ... [ˈɔɪ̯]! 11:52, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

Australian English phonology vowel charts

I noticed recently that the Australian English phonology vowel charts and noticed new charts added. Also, this edit summary: [2]. Curious to know, are they original research? There is no discussion on the article talk page.--Officer781 (talk) 13:13, 10 March 2018 (UTC)

@Officer781: ...I know. I'm trying to catch up with all the things I said I'd do and then didn't do. Sorry for that and thanks for reminding me. Mr KEBAB (talk) 15:11, 10 March 2018 (UTC)

@Mr KEBAB: Sure, just a heads-up, no rush. If there is anything I can do, possibly join in the discussion or anything, just ping me.--Officer781 (talk) 13:42, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

@Officer781: Will do. Give me a few hours, perhaps a day. Mr KEBAB (talk) 19:25, 12 March 2018 (UTC)