User talk:Motmit/Archive 1

Black Potts Railway Bridge

Hi. I see you've created an article about this bridge. I just wanted to be sure about the spelling you've used for the article name. I had never seen it spelt with an apostrophe before, and a quick Google seems to confirm my suspicions (about 200 hits for "black potts railway bridge" against 21 for "black pott's railway bridge", 85% of the latter having come from Wikipedia or mirror sites.) Now, one way or the other, this page is the opportunity to educate the world about the correct spelling...!

I checked the OS map for Windsor but it doesn't give the name. Also, googling for "black potts ait" gives two hits against zero for "black pott's ait". So, do you have any authoritative references that can confirm which is correct?

Incidentally, I noticed you'd edited many Thames-related articles and wondered if you were aware of Wikipedia:WikiProject UK Waterways?

EdJogg 22:21, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Copied from EdJogg's talk page to keep the discussion in one place:

Hi - I just created the article against the pre-existing red links which had an apostrophe. I was concerned about the apostrophe but as it appeared in every link, I decided to leave it. I checked Google and there were some references with apostrophes but intuitively I think the apostrophe is wrong. I found references to fishing in the Black Potts area which I may incorporate somewhere. (Incidentally the reverse happened with Platts Eyot, which I think ought to have an apostrophe.) I have been working on the Thames locks (and created an infobox which I hope will be of use on canals generally). So informally I am doing my bit for the waterways project, although I am only interested and knowledgeable about the Thames. Motmit 07:09, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

EdJogg 08:34, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

I think that you are probably in a better place to determine whether the apostrophe should be present or not. Bear in mind, though, that the redlinks on WP may well have been added (incorrectly) by the same person, or some added and the rest copied! As we both feel that the apostrophe should not be present, I think you could safely move the page to the 'correct' name and then wait until someone provides some good references that contradict this. (I can't remember the exact name of the chap, but I found one article about a 19th century MP/engineer which had had the name of his article spelt incorrectly for TWO YEARS, despite safe web-references being available to the contrary!)

As for the WikiProject, you need not participate substantially (I don't) but you may find that watching the talk page provides useful resources for your Thames editing. Equally, you will find there a willing audience for your templates and suchlike!

EdJogg 08:34, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

E.T.B.

Thanks for the biographical details. We wouldn't just happen to have access to family photos as well, would we? I'm going to have to scan one out of a Morton Herman, and it's dreadfully grainy.

I don't know whether you took a look at the discussion page. I've dumped there an excerpt from the Australian Dictionary of Biography (this is as against the Dictonary of Australian Biography... I hope I've got it around the right way) I find it most unfortunate that the writer has used it as an opportunity to slam Blacket's work (and the stupid editors have let this through). William Wardell, whose work is almost entirely derivative (the east end of St Mary's is Lincoln, vrtually unchanged) is praised in D.A.B. (by a different author of course) as sensitive and so on. One would think that W.W. were a much greater architect, but it is far from the case. He did, however, have the opportunity to build Australia's two largest Cathedrals unimpeded, even to the extent of running St Mary's north/south. Amazingly, it can simply have to do with whether the writer is Catholic or Anglican.

Unfortunately the opinion that Blacket was purely derivative has been very persistent. The fact that he used his periodicals from England as a basis, and that this is both historically known and visibly apparent distracts historians from looking with awareness at the changes that he made. These changes were not simply ornamental. They were made with the aim to achieve a more dynamic appearance to the structure. It's not clearly apparent in photos because you need to confront the building, or be in the building to see what is happening, and how he has used form and space to create movement... something Henry Yvelle understood perfectly, but most Victorian Gothic architects didn't.

Anyway, this is my little rave. I don't know how much of it I can actually write in the article. Dear Joan Kerr, whom I keep quoting and who is generally regarded as the authority on E.T.B., has died. Between the writing of her book and her standing before the architecture of dem pearly gates, I persuaded her to see Blacket rather less in Woffenden's terms... we should have collaborated on something but it's a bit late now Amandajm 00:08, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

P.S. I just reread that middle paragraph and think I ought to include something like that.

===ETB Legends===

OK, the Blacket cloth bit comes from Morton Herman. I'll delete that.

As for Joan Kerr, she was a most meticulous historian and worked from original sources wherever possible. Knowing that Blacket had left his library to Sydney University, she searched the stack until she located a large number of them. Unfortunately she was never able to locate the plans and drawings of the university itself, which Cyril gave them after his father's death, and they lost. I have no trouble quoting anything of a factual nature that Joan may have written. Morton Herman is another matter. There is a nice little picture reproduced in his book, with a description of the location, but in fact an entirely different church was built on the site. It bothered me for years. According to Joan Kerr, the design was rejected in favour of a much simpler one. Pity! So, if you find mistakes, just let me know. It can be awfully funny the way stories get around and sometimes develop.

I once had it unexpectedly dropped on me to do a talk to a large group of people about a distinguished member of their profession. I had approximately 3 minutes warning, but fortunately had read a little about the particular individual. Everybody clapped and laughed as they were supposed to, and at the end of it an old gentleman with white whiskers came up and said, "well, I had never heard the story about Grandpa and the such-n-such!" At least it was merely a funny and not one that was contentious!

Amandajm 09:41, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Question

With regards "Blacket Cloth", I Googled it and this is what I found http://lineage.tilbury.net.au/pdf/blacketline.pdf [1] What's the story? Morton Herman wrote about it in 1964, and here it is in this lineage. But the only other references to "blacket" in association with cloth are clearly, by context, a misspelling of "blanket". I presume that you have good reason for saying that the story is not accurate. Is there any more to know? Amandajm 11:13, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately I don't have access to all this interesting stuff! I'm many miles away from all the places where they keep these archival collections. I'm relying on my own library and the net. For that reason I'm very dependent on Joan Kerr who hunted all the stuff out, visited the remaining great niece, (whom I also met a few times but only chatted to). Joan has detailed what all her sources are. You ought to try to pick up a copy of her book, if you don't have one. She was Associate Professor of Fine Arts at Sydney for quite some years and renowned as an Art Historian, but... let me say that the situation within the department was often... (I'm searching for the right word...) and in the end, she left. I haven't looked to see if anyone has written her biography on wiki yet. If they haven't, I could at least do a stub. I only knew her professionally. I've just found this great quotation by J.M.Freeland, Professor of Architecture at the University of New South Wales, back in the 60's when all this stuff was being demolished. He said "The real architects of Sydney, in general, liked, respected and helped each other as friends. This peaceful situation was partly due to the overpowering presence of Edmund Blacket. Blacket bestrode the Sydney Architectural scene like a colossus." .... and into the middle of this rather laid-back atmosphere of gentlemen who were colonial, but terribly British, walked the arrogant little man from Boston, Mass., J.Horbury Hunt, who saw himself as more British than the rest of them (hiving been to Yorkshire with his father as a lad) and who blustered, bullied and would grab a hammer from a carpenter to show him how to knock a nail in straight. But really, he was brilliant- up there with Charles Rennie Macintosh. I'm going to get back to that page and see how it looks, and tidy up the list, if I've got the energy.

Amandajm 12:55, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Hi TimTom!

If this article gets any bigger, it is going to start screaming at us to break it into bits! The addition about the communication with the father and mother-in-law is good, though. Also the papers. Can you pleeease cite your sources!

• If the information is "Blackett family oral history" please cite as such, and if possible, a source eg. Blacket's grand-daughter Gladys Blacket (dates).
• If the source is written but not published, cite "Letter from Edmund Blacket to father, (date), unpublished, Blackett family archives".
• If you are only citing the letter once, don't bother using the ref name= format. But if you do use that format, then don't cite two different works within the same brackets, as you did with the National Archives.
• Don't cite a source you haven't sighted, unless you are quoting another relable source, eg. "The National Archives as cited by J.M. Freeland, History of Blahdeblah.
• Be careful of my citations. If there is just one citation at the end of a paragraph or section, then all the material has come from that source, so if you move one sentence, like surveying Whitby abbey, you need to copy the citation so it covers both the old and the newly positioned material.

Cheers!

Amandajm 06:34, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

More re ETB

I've just copied your response here so I can answer it. There is something that is making me fume! You might very welll wonder why neither Morton Herman nor Joan Kerr cite sources from the Anglican Archives. The problem is that the Anglican Archives at the time were kept almost totally inacessible to people doing historical research, and even when Joan was writing it was almost impossible to get access to anything unless you were a Bishop or a canon of the cathedral at the very least. (Sydney has four regional bishops) That has changed, thank goodness!

• • E.T.B. My response was getting to be as long as the article so I have cut it down! Much of the information I have picked up from a set of notes collated by Vine Hall in a private publication which I do not consider a reliable source, in part because the references do not link directly to the text. It appears that most of this is from the same sources as your friend has seen – Blacket’s log, Blacket’s papers and Mease letters which I suspect are in the Mitchell library in Australia. I do not have access to this, but I have checked as much as I can from original sources in England (and found significant errors). Hence I don’t like to quote this stuff unless it provides a counter to incorrect interpretations or assumptions or bears out known facts. (thus the introduction of his letter about his father). There are two areas I have some concern about.

Yes, the Mitchell Library is the main holder of Blacket's documents.

1) 1838-1841.

Up to 1838 there is definite evidence of Edmund, John and James being at Stokesley and almost certainly all involved in the mill. A suggestion from some biographical accounts is that the mill there closed in 1841, but it is possible that this was an assumption made without knowledge of the financial crisis of 1838 and because the 1841 census is the first record of them all not being at Stokesley. Alternatively it is possible that the mill continued to operate while the matter was in Chancery. However both James at Edmund are said to have been involved in other activities in Yorkshire around this time - although the Stockton and Darlington connection probably needs verification.

A The article at present doesn't conflict with what you have written here, so I think it should remain as it is. Morton Herman cites the journal Art and Architecture, January 1905 as the source of Stockton Darlington info.

2) Archbishop of Canterbury

Edmund worked as Inspector of Schools in Australia, possibly on the recommendation of the AoC. This recommendation seems to have been brought about by a Mr Cator, implying Edmund had no previous connection with the Archbishop. Is the statement that he worked as Inspector of Schools for the Archbishop in England accurate or has this somehow become mixed in along the way? Freshfield’s role is hypothesis (although he was sometime Treasurer of a Church charity). The AoC at the time was William Howley who apparently had a great interest in architecture.

AJoan Kerr does not quote the reference from the AoC, probably because it would be located in the blinking Anglican Archives where, at that time, she would not have been able to gain access. What she does quote, however, is a letter written by the BoS to Governor Gipps-

"Mr Blackett is a gentleman who comes out with the sanction of the Archbishop of Canterbury, and strongly recommended as conversant with all that is essential to the successful management of Schools for General Education."

I might give the archivist a ring. She treats my arrival with some trepidation as I talk too much.

Q Do you want to leave Freshfield out entirely?

Anyway here is a pile of stuff I picked up which may be of value, but apart from the Stokesly registers I cannot confirm

• Between June and October 1838 Edmund was paying bills in Stokesley (an old leather accounts book)
• Between 6 Oct and 18 Nov 1838 he was paying board to his brother Henry at Smithfield (old leather accounts book)
• On 25 Dec 1838 and 14 Mar 1839 he paid subscriptions to Stokesley Literary and Scientific society (ibid?)
• Edmund built a clock for the Methodist church at Stokesley and also a town clock (source unknown)

So the clock should be metioned

• Edmund’s brother John was a stauch Methodist and had two of his children baptised at the Methodist Chapel at Stokeley in 1835 and 1837. (Baptism Records)
• Edmund’s brother James' first wife was buried at Stokesley Church in 1837. (Registers and gravestone)
• This James was at some time in legal practice as a partner in the firm of solicitors at Stokesley Garbutt, Blackett and Fawcett. (Source unknown)

Q, I presume that's Smithfield London? So he was resident in York but spent 6 weeks in London

• A Mr Howdery promised letters of introduction – presumably those that Edmund took with him (Mease letter)
• A Mr Cator wrote to the Archbishop on Edmund’s behalf (possibly family of Cator of Beckenham) (Mease letter)

Q What date?

• On leaving England “Neither my Father or Mother would bid me good bye, so my old Uncle offered to see us off (Probably John Blacket the elder)” (ETB letter 1859)

OK nice biographical detail

• Another friend was a Michael Metcalfe a Sydney merchant

A Blacket built Metcalfe's store.

• There is a family story that Edmund arrived in Australia with 600 gold sovereigns given by his father tied up in a Bank of England canvas bag. – (possibly a myth)

A Morton Herman says that ETB had 600 pounds on arrival. In the same paragraph he describes ETB's appearance. He cites the Journal of the Royal Australaian Historical Society. So I have no idea whhat the original source was, or even at this time, what year the volume was published, but I can find out.

In 1862 Edmund won a medal at the International Exhibition in Liverpool for a carved cedar font. (source unknown)

• Really, I wonder where it is now.
• During the 1879 Sydney International Exhibition he was one of the judges assessing musical instruments. (Official record of the Exhibition p 423)
• Queen Victoria and Prince Albert asked that the stained glass windows for Sydney University be assembled at Windsor Castle before being shipped probably because they included a portrait of the Queen (source unknown)

A, this doesn't surprise me at all. They wouldn't have needed to fully assemble the window, which is pretty large. It would have come in panels that were of manageable, crateable size. It wouldn't have been too hard to cart a few samples up to the Castle. It has never ceased to amaze me that a firm that was founded only in 1855 received this extraordinary commmission. I have no idea how it came about, and wonder who recommended them.

• There are two stones with initials on the University – one with MM above the organ loft railing after his sister in law Mary Mease;- the other with MES directly opposite the south wall for Mary Styles a friend. (Blacket’s diary)

• His son Cyril said “The whole family had to stand at the table at meal times until father came in. When he arrived – right on the tick of time, they would all sit down. His sons always called him Sir”. There are other references to Edmund being a stickler for punctuality
• The portrait described in Morton Herman’s book is believed not to be Edmund, but his elder brother James.

Comment MH reproduces a watercolour in the Michell Library which is almost certainly ETB because the proportions of the features, the wave in the hair, and so on, coincide strongly with the photgraph of Blacket with his children all flopping on him, and later pics. The watercolour shows him as a handsome, well-dressed young man.

• Russell Blacket lived at Wollongong and started a school there (Advertisements Illawara Mercury February and July 1869). Russell sailed over on the ship Jason – 9 Oct 1858 to 13 Jan 1859. Russell’s son Wilfred was born at Redfern in September 1859.
• Edmund had a cousin Tom (T B) Stephens who was politically active in Queensland

• I have concerns about two external references in the article.

The Tilbury one you brought in shows a chart with serious genealogical errors (and refers to the wretched Blacket cloth) – stemming from Vine Hall’s work.

That external Blackett database has next to nothing on Edmund and requires extensive navigation (it also contains the genealogical errors, although hopefully they will address them. I have set up a Blackett page to link to it instead so I think it ought to go from here

A, info needs citation. I have a citable reference that says that after his wiffe's death Edmund lived for a time in a house owned by his brother Russell. But not how his brother came to be there. You, or some other person, had added the info that "most of his brothers and sisters" were in England. If it was "most", then it raises the question- who wasn't. The answer is that Russell wasn't! So if Russell was in NSW, when did he arrive? The Tilbury website provided me with that answer, and makes the information coherent. If the Tilbury website is correct on that point, then I nneed to cite it, unless there is another source available.

• OK, I'll drop in one or two of those interesting Biographical details.

Amandajm 05:08, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Wording

If it's marked as a direct quote then obviously I wouldn't change it, but I don't see that otherwise we need to be tied to the exact wording when that introduces a layer of ambiguity. "The business" referred to is that of the ending of the business partnership, not the business partnership itself, but as presented could cause readers to assume that the "business being in Chancery" might be similar to being in administration or receviership today. The simple change of word eliminates that source of confusion (possibly context makes this clearer in the source). Generally we are supposed to paraphrase, rather than copy verbatim, in any case. David Underdown 12:29, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Grass Eyot Template

It's not presumptuous for me to mark articles for deletion at all. Please demonstrate the notability of Grass Eyot. Note, a great many other non-noteworthy articles are deleted (not just marked) within ten minutes. Also note that Wikipedia is not an atlas. Let's try to keep this on the talk page for Grass Eyot. I'm copying our conversation over there.-- Mumia-w-18 17:47, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Blackett

I am happy to defer to your reversion of my last edit, even tho it seems an unnecessary duplication. However two points

1. As there are 14 Blackett Baronets in all, and seperate articles for only five of them, it does not seem necessary to include No. three in the list when there is no article

2. If we are to have a list I would prefer them to be listed in succession order . Do you agree?Ordyg 16:19, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

"...and we beheld his Glory...full of Grace and Truth." John Hardman window from St. Andrew's Cathedral, Sydney.

Bridges in Oxfordshire

I'm sorry that you're very disappointed - I believed I was following Wiki style, and keeping both your additions and my original info - but do please yourself.