User talk:Montanabw/Mustang

Capitalization of "mustang"

Note: The following discussion was moved here (cut diff/paste diff) from the Talk page of the "Mustang" (formerly "Mustang horse") article.

Most, though not all, of the mid-sentence instances of the word "mustang" in this article were capitalized as "Mustang" until I changed them uniformly to "mustang" yesterday. I did this because the word "mustang", like the word "horse", is a common noun, not a proper noun, and therefore should not be capitalized. Check any dictionary; I checked six. I also found a few news articles discussing mustang roundups, and none of them capitalized the word. If anyone disagrees, I am happy to consider evidence to the contrary, but 100% consistency among dictionaries and news articles is going to be mighty hard to contravene. — Jaydiem (talk) 12:25, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

• "The horse is a mustang, just a mustang, with no additions, not even a capital letter." - me, in the previous discussion.

It seems as if we agree on this one, at least where the horse is concerned. Sincerely, SamBlob (talk) 13:12, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

• The word was used over 70 times, there were three instances of lower case. Capitalization is the consistent use in this article for at least the past five or six years, possibly longer. In this context, the "Mustang" is a proper noun, as it describes a particular breed or type of horse - which may include the substrains Kiger Mustang, Pryor Mountain Mustang, Spanish Mustang, and so on. Within the horse industry, "Mustang" is often (though inconsistently) capitalized: See, e.g. The Horse (the leading and popular flagship magazine of the AAEP, published by Blood-Horse publications). As for dictionaries, they present the issue of whether ANY animal breed is capitalized, (i.e. Poodle or poodle, etc...) and that is a discussion that is also linked to a discussion of species capitalization that has been raging elsewhere on wikipedia, with far more heat than light, resulting in some illogical outcomes and the loss of many good content editors (note WP:BIRDS). WikiProject Equine has consistently viewed all breed names as proper nouns and has favored logical capitalization consistent with this and will continue to do so until someone decrees that the five pillars will collapse, then certainly please help us redo 400 article names - again (see above drama). Montanabw^(talk) 04:00, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

• @Montanabw: I'm afraid your cited reference does not support your claim. I followed your link to a search for "mustang" at TheHorse.com, and examined the first three pages of results. Of those 30 articles, 22 show preview text with the word "mustang" appearing in mid-sentence and not as part of a phrasal proper name (such as "Extreme Mustang Makeover" or "Mustang Heritage Foundation"). In all of those 22 cases, the word is rendered in lowercase. Without exception.

⋮

I also noticed a few articles that referred to "mustangs and burros", which indicates that the two words are treated the same grammatically. If we were to capitalize all uses of "mustang" here, then for consistency we would also have to capitalize all uses of "burro" in the "Burro" article. Is that what you're proposing? — Jaydiem (talk) 12:14, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

• False equivalency. There is a merge proposal on burro to merge it with donkey. Like horse and pony, burros aren't a breed. For example, Wild and Free-Roaming Horses and Burros Act of 1971. Mustangs, on the other hand, are not a "generic" horse of some sort that is a mere estray animal (which is what the generic lower case once implied - along with shoot on sight); they are a unique descendant of the Spanish Colonial Horse, (along with the Banker horse, Florida Cracker Horse and others), genetically distinguishable and so on. Here, my point is that this, to me is the "Poodle/poodle" question. Some manuals of style say to capitalize breed names, others say not to. Others are mixed. It's also a political issue, as wild Mustangs have special protection and ordinary stray horses (the original definition of "mustang") do not, as can be seen in this example. To the extent that magazine editors choose to go with lower case, clearly, they have staff reading the same manual of style that falls on the poodle side of the Poodle/poodle question. (Is this the next The/the Beatles issue? Oh noooo!) Because the capitalization wars are raging right now (again), I'd prefer not to go into 400 horse breed articles and change names only to have to go back and change them all over again. We've spent YEARS with rm requests getting them all consistent with each other! Plus, we have the parenthetical disambiguation issue above that is still not settled. I view what you are actually requesting is a project-wide naming conventions change, and I just think it needs to wait until the other wars settle and clearer guidelines come down. Can you agree to let this sit for a month or two until the other fires burn out? Montanabw^(talk) 20:03, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

• @Montanabw: I'm not convinced, yet, but I'm willing to listen. In respect of "other fires", I don't mind moving this conversation to your Talk page for the time being. =) — Jaydiem (talk) 03:34, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

• And I'm groovy with it sitting here for now. Montanabw^(talk) 01:57, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Formal definition of "mustang"

@Montanabw: I'd be interested in knowing about how the term "mustang" (or the appellation "Mustang") is formally defined—in other words, specific criteria by which the question "What is a mustang?" can be answered. I'm talking here about sources more specialized than a general-purpose dictionary, such as notable equine-related organizations, scientific papers, or relevant state or Federal legislation and regulations. I would guess that there are different authorities who define the word in somewhat different ways, and perhaps also that the definition might vary slightly depending on the context in which the term is used. Can you give me an overview of the subject, or point me to one? Thanks, — Jaydiem (talk) 20:31, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

You will find multiple definitions, I suspect. The most "logical" source is rather useless, the statute, because it uses the misnomer "wild horse" which is now a term of law (just like the archaic "Indian" is used in US law for Native Americans) - the BLM acknowledges that there were no surviving extant truly "wild" - as in never domesticated - equines left in America until they were returned with the arrival of the Spanish conquistadors. So all "wild" horses are technically feral. As you can see from Feral horse, there are multiple breeds (for lack of a better word) of feral horses in different parts of the country, including on the east coast (Banker horse, Chincoteague pony, etc...). The Mustang is the free-roaming "wild" horse of the west, but for some sort of political reasons (probably due to publicity but also linked to the reality that some bands are of more mixed breeding than others) the more romantic "wild horse" is enshrined in federal law. The individual bands are by now pretty clearly identified in each of the HMAs where they live. On top of that, there are the Mustangs adopted off the range, which are freeze-branded, assigned recording numbers and so on. There are also multiple registries, some pretty professional, others less so. Some are for wild-caught, adopted BLM Mustangs, others for specific bloodlines or types (See, e.g. Kiger Mustang, Spanish Mustang, Pryor Mountain Mustang and so on.) Even with tamed animals, the definition of what makes a horse "breed" can get really fuzzy sometimes. (See, for example, color breed, some of which are ludicrous) Montanabw^(talk) 05:55, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Assorted dictionary definitions and such here:

• http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/mustang (That one drives me nuts that they list bronc as a synonym)
• http://www.thefreedictionary.com/mustang (this one also has some clunkers, such as "pony" as a synonym)
• http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/mustang (This one at least didn't drive me to distraction with errors)
• http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=mustang

All that said, here is some material. The grandfather of all Mustang study was J. Frank Dobie's The Mustangs: http://books.google.com/books?id=ogEoCDJbX68C Dobie romanticized a bit, but for his time (I think the 1950s) he was pretty thorough and made good use of what little research had been done at that time, but he also did a lot of guessing. There's been a lot more research since, the the thing that has kept this article from a GA push is the sheer amount of research out there! The Pryor Mountain Mustang band has documented DNA that traces them to the original Colonial Spanish Horse (I think the source for this is noted in the Pryor Mustang article). Most sources that discuss origins agree more or less on the derivation from mestengo" or mesteño" You will find these sources useful:

• http://books.google.com/books?id=pXxYpn1JDdsC&dq I have this book in hardcopy somewhere in a box, it's old, but not overly romantic and fairly well researched for its time (1963). Some of the research and conclusions have been superceded by modern studies, but this was a respected work in its time.
• http://books.google.com/books?id=h9EqWKDi9eAC&vq A newer book (2009) I find it a bit overwrought and romantic, but they have the benefit of more recent research if you can wade through the waxing lyrical to get there.

BLM stuff:

• http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/prog/whbprogram/history_and_facts/history_of_the_program.html
• http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/prog/whbprogram/history_and_facts/quick_facts.html BLM
• http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/prog/whbprogram/history_and_facts/myths_and_facts.html

(Note their reluctance to say "Mustang" even though that's the acronym for their toll-free hotline)

Journal and web pages:

• http://www.amnh.org/explore/science-bulletins/bio/documentaries/the-last-wild-horse-the-return-of-takhi-to-mongolia/article-when-is-wild-actually-feral This is a cool article, short and sweet
• http://www.depauw.edu/site/humanimalia/issue02/pdfs/Dalke.pdf This article claims the word can be traced to Zebulon Pike.
• Sponenberg is a VERY highly respected genetic researcher. I'd give my eyeteeth to get the full text of this article: http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=8236550&fileId=S1014233900000122
• http://jhered.oxfordjournals.org/content/97/2/107.short Another genetic study that included the Sulfur Mustang strain (Which I don't think we've done an article on yet).

Sorry for the core dump. You asked! LOL! Montanabw^(talk) 05:55, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

• No apology needed—I did indeed ask! And thanks for taking the time to share all this! I look forward to reviewing the linked material as I have time. — Jaydiem (talk) 06:41, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

• • Enjoy! Montanabw^(talk) 23:36, 31 July 2014 (UTC)