User talk:Moni3/Buffy rewrites

Buffy is actually called at 15, in L.A. She's 16 when she gets to Sunnydale. There are several places where she talks about fighting since the age of 15. If you need me to find one, let me know. Good luck. Call on me if you need anything.--TEHodson 01:16, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

I don't know how Buffy's parents appear in the film. I saw it several times, but her parents are extremely minor characters. There are a few references to Buffy burning down her old school in LA, and Joyce warns Buffy not to start the same trouble as in her old school, but I don't know if the film and TV series carry Joyce over as a character. --Moni3 (talk) 01:22, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

She's not named in the film, but she is there, played by Candy Clark. Then we see them in L.A. during flashbacks in Becoming, Part 1 or 2, when the demon Whistler takes Angel to see her--he watches her get called at school, then watches her as her parents fight about her having been out late. She also refers to having been fighting since she was 15 when talking to Riley in the episode where Prof. Walsh meets her as The Slayer. Shall I run down these episodes for you? If you have questions that can be answered with an episode, please ask me for help--they're right on my TV, streaming, and I have them on disk, too, for commentary stuff if you require it.--TEHodson 01:32, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Just saw his latest lecture to you on your Talk page. Is he insane?--TEHodson 01:37, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

After all the chaos these last few days, I just wanted to remind you of the bit I'd mentioned to do with Joyce's compassion, even for Faith after nearly being killed by her. If you want the ref. info for that, let me know.--TEHodson 19:00, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

I have to go through each source to summarize its points, then put it in a readable interesting format. Can you be clearer about which books you have? If you would like to summarize them in the same way they are summarized in the sandbox, that would help. That's two less books I would have to read through. Some of them don't have indexes, making it much more difficult to get this done in any time format this weekend. --Moni3 (talk) 19:07, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

I only have the one book: Buffy and Philosophy. There are a couple of places where the incident between Joyce and Faith is referenced (after Faith has switched bodies with Buffy in "This Year's Girl"). Two different writers in two different essays make the point that Joyce, despite having just been threatened by Faith, feels compassion for her and shows insight into her. The exchange goes something like this: Joyce asks Buffy (Faith, in Buffy's body), why she thinks Faith is the way she is; Buffy replies, "She likes being that way"; Joyce says, "I'll never believe that. I think she's terribly unhappy." The writers point is that she sees pain where others see mere acting out (in Faith, that is). I think it's a valuable insight into Joyce, so I'm offering it. If you think it's worth includng in the revised article, I'll give you all the book info and ref. detail, and watch the ep so as to get the details correct.--TEHodson 19:20, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, the switch happens in This Year's Girl, but the conversation occurs at the beginning of "Who Are You (Buffy the Vampire Slayer)"--TEHodson 19:23, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Wow (and burning down the gym)

Really amazing work, Moni. I am astonished at the breadth of scholarship out there about Joyce and at your ease with bringing it all together into a narrative. I've never observed an article-in-the-making before; it's a thing to see, and I am deeply impressed. And daunted. And kind of inspired. If my local library has any of the salient books, I may try my hand at one of the character articles currently under review.

I have one correction to make: the "burning down the school gym" thing doesn't happen in the movie. The movie's final sequence is a big fight in the gymnasium, but it doesn't get burnt down. The event referred to in the series is something we never see--the implication is that after many such episodes of "trouble-making" which have made her notorious and driven her parents nuts, Buffy finally is in a situation where burning down the gym is what she has to do and as a result gets kicked out of school, but we never see it in either movie or series (we see her staking her first vampire in a flashback in the series, and getting yelled out by her Mom in "Surprise" (I think I gave you this info already). Anyway, I'm good for the fact-checking as you go along, and please ask for help if you need it!--TEHodson 00:41, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Good job with that correction. There's no clear timeline for the action of the film merging with the action of the show, and Joss mostly threw out the old stuff anyway (like the menstrual cramps that movie-Buffy feels which signal nearby vampires--can you imagine if she'd had to go through the whole series with that plot point to deal with!), but roughly, she's a mere Freshman in LA when called, she learns her trade, and pretty much right away confronts the gang led by Rutger Hauer and their attack at the dance in the gym. From what they discuss in the series and how it's shown in the few flashbacks we see, it seems that her first year just went on getting worse until the big fire that brought down the house (in every sense of the word). But technically, I think movie-Buffy was older than a Freshman; certainly Kristi Swanson looked much older (I think she was in her 20s). She was a cheerleader in the movie, too, and popular. She ended up with a boyfriend at the end, too, who helped with the big fight. You know, for all its flaws, some of us saw the potential in the movie right away and dragged friends to see it--Joss did succeed at making for us a heroine who turned the genre on its head and getting us interested enough to be there when the series started, and Kristi did all her own flips and jumps (having been a gymnast), so that was fun. I have a soft spot in my heart for it, but wish I could have seen the movie Joss wanted to make. Anyway, that's the best timeline I can piece together.--TEHodson 01:16, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm going to try to finish this article today, but it may be impossible. Severe snowstorm here in the northeast. No power in the entire region. I had to drive a while to get this signal. Will be saving frequently so as not to lose edits. --Moni3 (talk) 14:15, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

The Joyce Summers article is not FA status yet (or GA), but it's presentable and can be posted. I'm going to do that. Then I'm going to go home to see if I have hot water so I can take a shower... If you'd like to copy edit it, go ahead. I have the Philosophy book, and I can add the stuff about Faith. I think it's supported by other sources, so a couple sentences can be added about it. I have other books on order and an article about Joyce to read. I can do that at home after I get electricity. I don't know when that might be, though. --Moni3 (talk) 17:46, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Congratulations, Moni. I will go over it tonight (I'm on the West Coast, so you won't see it till tomorrow, probably). I have been reading about the mess back East (which is where I grew up, so know how it goes). I hope that soon you will be warm and able to cook and you know, turn on a light or something. As for FA/GA status, I think it's fine that it's just really good, at least for now. I've been watching the debate on the Buffyverse page about what these articles should be (encyclopedia vs fan quality) and I think your work on this article supports the notion of WP as being a place where a certain standard can be reached even on popular culture pages. I'm proud of the fact that many of the Buffy articles are of a standard that distinguishes them from the usual Buffy wikis, and I know you are,too. I don't think we should let the articles slide just because they're not of life and death importance, or whatever his point is. Anyway, good work.--TEHodson 19:38, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Jenny

I have a book about the Roma, their history and current condition, and unlike here on WP, they use the word Romani only to describe their language, and the word Roma for the people themselves. I know they're called Romani in the show--do you want me to find that book and give you more info? I used Roma in my paragraph on the List page because of having read this book (Bury Me Standing Up, I think it's called).--TEHodson 02:02, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

The only books my local library system has are the Watcher's Guides, vol. 2 & 3. I'm going to reserve them.--TEHodson 06:30, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

Spike

Moni, I know you're ass-deep in the Master (maybe that was too picturesque); anyway, I have been wanting to talk to you about Spike's article. Of all the Buffy characters, he fascinates me most and Joss considered him his most developed character (I think that's a quote). He is, not to get too tribal-y on you, what my people would call "the truthspeaker" of the group, right from the beginning. He's also got a moral center, something which Angel does not possess, which is very interestig to me. He actively works to become good (before getting his soul back, I mean) and is capable of love and devotion even as a soul-less vampire. My point is, I'd like to really get into his article once I have some sources, but I will never have all those that you have, as some just aren't available anymore and I'm not rich enough to buy them all. Would you be interested in getting into it together, down the road?--TEHodson 00:45, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

My whimsical ideas, given the right amount of time and energy (or lack of resistance here) is to write Buffy's, Faith's, Xander's, Anya's, and see what else is up. In my least sober moments I contemplate getting the BTVS TV series article back to FA. But then I sober up and get smarter. Spike always gets a good guffaw out of me and I always like the "love's bitch" speech. The more important the character, though, the probability that someone's going to take issue with an article rewrite. Also, because these characters are major, their articles will take more to construct. I write when I can. Otherwise, I can't concentrate for more than a day sometimes. I also tend to jump topics pretty quickly. I like certain topics and fields, and I can sustain interest in them for years, but just not all that time in a row. I may get Buffy'd out in the near future and have to pick this up later.

There's a buttload (even assdeep in the Master) of info about Spike--including a book chapter titled "The Search for Spike's Balls" that no doubt would be greatly enlightening. I'm not averse to rewriting Spike's article. I just don't know where it may lie on my timeline of future edits. --Moni3 (talk) 01:06, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

In which book is that colorfully-titled chapter found? Well, I will have to think about it, too, as I foresee a lot of irritation coming out of such a venture. But if I'm going to hang around this place, I may as well do more than just clean up after others (not referring to you--but to people like the kid who just blew out an article I had to spend 2 hours repairing). If I feel especially inspired I may give it a go and of course will let you know so you can at least decide if the time is right. By the way, I'm very glad we're working harmoniously together. I think Jenny Calendar is in good shape now.--TEHodson 01:32, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Some vacation!

Hey--thought you was takin' a break?--TEHodson 06:44, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

The library recalled three of the most useful books. I was supposed to have them until April. --Moni3 (talk) 12:42, 2 December 2011 (UTC)