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List of Irish clans page info

Hi Mabuska - I'm wondering if you can help me out here with book references. In the past, you interacted a lot with the page List of Irish clans, and you were discussing the page content on the talk page. And I see that you started a new page List of Irish clans in Ulster, so you must have a reasonable knowledge about the Irish Clans.

But this is my question - on the page List of Irish clans, yes, I know you didn't start the page, and you didn't add all the content, but I am wondering if you know where the user User:Martin32 got his information for the page? Have you any idea what book he got that information? Its very difficult to contact people on Wikipedia so I don't know how to contact Martin32 who might not be logging into his account, or checking his user talk page.

Mabuska, have you any idea what book he might have got all that clan information from? In particular, I want to know what book he got this clan information from;

He listed;

-Tellach Cearbhallan

-Finer, son of Cúmscrach (aka Cumascrach)

-Maoil Mhiadhaigh (Mulvey)

-Ó Beigléighinn (BEGLIN, BEGLAN, BEGLAIN, BEGNAL, BEGLANE, BIGLANE, BEGLEN, BEGLLIN, BIGLAN, BEGLYN ), Ó Bardain (BODEN ), Ó hEolusa (HALLISSY), Ó Muiredaigh (MURRAY, MORIE, MORRA, MORRIE, MOREY, ÓMORY, MURRY, MURRIE), Ó Cuirnin, ollamh (CURNIN, CURNAN, CURNEN), Ó Maolghuala (MULHOOLY, HOOGHLEY, MULHOOGHLEY, MULOOLEY), Mac Mioluic (MULLOCK MacMEELICK, MacMOLEG, MOOLICK, MULLICKE, MULOCK)

-Leitrim baronies of Mohill and Leitrim

-Muinter Eolais, Conmaicne Réin

This type of clan information is very specific, it can only be listed in a few books. Its not in John O'Hart's Irish Pedigrees. And its not in T.H. Mullin and J.E. Mullin (1966). "The Ulster Clans", North-West Books. And its not in Robert Bell (1988) . "The Book of Ulster Surnames", The Black Staff Press.

Thanks Mabuska for any help you can give me. John37309 (talk) 01:13, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

Hiya. From the looks of it, Martan32 doesn't edit too much, with scant edits over the years, the last being 1st January 2015. Looking at this edit however, Martan32's didn't add the septs into the article. Instead this is the edit, by an IP (inactive since 2009) that added a lot of stuff into the article over a period. All unsourced.

User:Eirreannach added few extra septs to it as well. They also edited the Ó Begléighinn article.

The thing I notice most about clan/sept articles is that lots of random editors come and add original research to them with no references and the such to even give a hint of verifiability. Many of these edits are made using stuff gleaned off Google or just made up in their head, such as alternate English variations.

Hope this helps a bit. Mabuska ^(talk) 11:17, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

Mabuska, thanks for replying. Very much appreciated!

So I had to piece things together to find out what happened. So on the 16th of June 2009, Martin32 is the person that actually started the page List of Irish clans. Martin32 makes 3 edits on the 16th and 17th of June 2009, adding info to the page. Then the next edits are made by IP address "79.97.17.84", and this IP address makes those next edits also on the 17th June 2009. And to be quite honest Mabuska, I suspected that the IP address "79.97.17.84", actually was Martin32, but I had no proof! But what are the chances of somebody else finding that brand new page that quickly, about 2 days after it was created?

Then I checked the talk page, and Martin32 did in fact talk once on the page. And he said, and I quote Martin32, "I often contribute without signing in". So that is proof that it was actually Martin32 that added the vast majority of information to the article, sometimes he signed in, and other times he didn't, and his IP address is "79.97.17.84". And then more specifically, I had a look at the specific edit that added the "Tellach Cearbhallan" information I quoted above, and yes, it was added by the IP address "79.97.17.84", who we know is Martin32 when he doesn't sign it!

I had a look at Martin32's talk page, and lots if people have posted stuff there. But Martin32 has never interacted with his own talk page. And he has not ticked the box to allow people to send him an email. So I just can't really contact Martin32.

Mabuska, all that aside, its not what is important here. He got the information somewhere, he got it from some book, just what is the book? And if he copied the info from another website, that website must also have gotten the info from a book. Its a massive amount of information about all the Irish clans. Its too much information to guess. Someone might well guess a small amount of information, but no, this is a monumentally large amount of information about all the Irish clans. And not only that, its good quality information, and its very well formatted. Therefore, there is some book, a very specific book, that has that information, written out in that specific format, about all the Irish clans, and linking them to those specific surnames. I want that book, I need that book!!!

Mabuska, I trying to find the root of the "Hallissey" surname, that is my surname, and I started that Hallissey Wikipedia page. Whatever book Martin32 got the information from, it translated "Ó hEolusa" as "HALLISSY". If that is true, then Hallissey's are descended from Muintir Eolais, and it easy to track the history. But Mabuska, i'm at my wits end here trying to find where us Hallissey's come from? I have been at this for 3 years now, or longer. I don't want to go and make the connection to Muintir Eolais, if it turns out in the end that its a bogus translation of the Irish word "Ó hEolusa". So that is why the List of Irish Clans Wikipedia page is so important to me. Its the only reference I can find that translates "Ó hEolusa" as "HALLISSY".

I have gone through several other surname books, and Hallissey is not mentioned in them, or if it does mention the surname, it translates the name as "Ó hÁilgheasa" or "descendant of Áilgheas". And I just cannot find a person called "Áilgheas" in the Irish Annals. As far as I can tell, our surname is very small and doesn't appear until about 1700AD. And most of the old Irish annals finish well before 1700AD, so I can't make the connection back into the history books!

Mabuska, any advice or help you can give me would be much appreciated. John37309 (talk) 15:48, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

Actually Wikipedia isn't the only reference for that Anglicisation. The first hit for me on Google for Ó hEolusa got me this site. It makes mention of both: "O Hallissy - Irish / Ui hEolusa" and "O Hallisey - Irish / Ua hAilgheasa / hAilgheasaigh / ailgheas". Thoigh it states no sources, it could well be where the editor got the information from. A lot of the sept/clan name articles/information on this site come from such sites and contain a complete lack of verifiability and possible original research.

I would venture that what one your Hallissey's come from depends on the spelling. It can be argued that Hallisey and Hallissy affect how the name is pronounced hence those specific endings. Yours ends in sey, so I'd lean towards Ó hÁilgheasa instead of Ó hEolusa. Your location, or location of your paternal ancestors could also help determine as the two different septs are quite far apart (north Connacht compared to south Munster) in location.

I wouldn't worry about not finding a name in the annals. Not all septs receive mention, and you are lucky to have such a unique surname that can be pinpointed to either of those two septs. Many people in Ireland will never know the true origin of their name due to the effects of Anglicisations and translations. Johnston is one simple example where you are either from John's Town, a son of John, or a McShane who translated their name into English. The surname Brown can be English, from Norman (de Brun), from Irish (Mac A Brehon), or even someone from the Clan Lamont. There are far more complicated examples where an Irish name was translated into English and all traces of the original Irish name are lost such as Armstrong. Armstrong is an English surname, however quite a few Lavery's and Trainor's in Ulster translated their name correctly or not to Armstrong. How will their descendants ever know? Mabuska ^(talk) 13:38, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Mabuska, yes, your right. There are actually 3 places on the internet that have similar information translating "Ó hEolusa" as "HALLISSY".

1. The Wikipedia page List of Irish clans.

2. The Wikipedia Template:Ulaid page.

3. That Australian Rainbow Farms website that you found through Google.

None of the 3 places quote the book reference where they got the information. A while back, I contacted the guy in Australia who owns the "Rainbow Farms" website, his name is Ernest, to ask where he got the information. And he said in the early 2000's, he found the information on "another internet website". He said he copied all the information to his own Rainbow Farms website, but never got any book reference for the information. And what ever website Ernest originally got the information from is now gone completely from the internet.

The Wikipedia Template:Ulaid page. That has similar information linking the "Hallissy" surname to that specific group of other surnames, all descended from this Muintir Eolais sept, who are a branch of the Conmaicne Magh Réin. But again, there is no book reference for the information. Its User:Claíomh Solais that created the Wikipedia Template:Ulaid page. And I posted a message on Claíomh Solais's talk page asking for a book reference, but I didn't get any reply yet.

Ultimately these 3 sources of information, none of them quote a book reference, which is what I need here. I don't think any of them made it up, I do think its written down that way in some specific book because there is such a large amount of clan information. The problem is that its the only book that translates "Ó hEolusa" as "HALLISSY".

I do have one more clue to prove if the information is correct or not. I took an ancestral DNA test, and the DNA test ties me into a group of "cousin surnames". This list of "cousin surnames" the DNA test tied me into is a very loose collection of people in their DNA database who also took their DNA test. Its a long list of surnames, and the vast majority of the surnames are in fact Scottish surnames! I was quite shocked by this as the Hallissey surname is only found in Counties Cork and Kerry in the south west of Ireland. How could that be, I wondered?

I said before that the Hallissey surname is a very small surname, it starts up around the year 1700AD, in county Cork. But prior to that 1700AD date, the surname simply doesn't exist, at least not with any spelling like "Hallissey". Therefore, the progenitor for the whole group must come from someplace else. The progenitor who is born about 1700AD is not born in county Cork, he must come from someplace else. But where does he come from?

As I said, the DNA test ties me into this very large group of "cousin surnames" that are mainly Scottish. There are almost no Munster surnames tied to me in the DNA test? But, and here is what give me great hope, there is one particular surname the DNA test does tie me into, and that surname is "Reynolds". Reynolds in Irish translates as "Mac Raghnaill", and low and behold, the Reynolds or Mac Raghnaill surname are descendants of Muintir Eolais in the baronies of Mohill and Leitrim, way up the north of the country. Its no where near counties Cork and Kerry where the Hallissey surname is found.

Now Mabuska, this is where your knowledge of Irish History, and more specifically, Northern Irish History comes into play. If you know your ancient history of the Northern Irish clans, you will know that a very large chunk of the Scottish Clans are descendants of the Irish High King Rudraige mac Sithrigi who reigned around 289–219 BC. The Muintir Eolais are also descendants of Rudraige mac Sithrigi. And that could well explain why my DNA test ties me into cousin surnames that are mainly Scottish, but it also ties me to this Irish surname Reynolds or Mac Raghnaill.

Mabuska, at some point before the year 1700AD, there must be a story in one of the Irish or Scottish Annals, about a person who comes down from Muintir Eolais in county Leitrim, and settles in County Cork, and starts using the Hallissey surname. This is why I am so desperate to find the book that translates "Ó hEolusa" as "HALLISSY". Without that book reference, the link is broken. John37309 (talk) 17:48, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

I can't help you with finding the book, though my main source for clan and sept names in Ulster does mention the Mac Raghnaill's of Leitrim, which Anglicised first as MacRannall and then to Reynolds and MacReynolds. The first of their main line to adopt the name Reynolds was Thomas M'Grannell in the 16th century. The problem is that there are quite a few different origins for the Reynolds of Ireland, especially in Ulster. Your Reynolds cousin-DNA may infact simply be the Scottish Mac Roanuill's, or even the Armagh and Tyrone Mag Raghainn, or even the Armagh O Reannachain's - all of which at some stage adopted Reynolds as there Anglicised name. That doesn't even take into account the possibility of Scots of Norman descent called Reynolds, a name which was introduced by the Normans to England as Reynaud and Raginald. But you do have the coincidence of Reynolds being a cousin-DNA and of one branch of Reynolds claimed as being from the Ó hEolusa.

I also wouldn't put any faith whatsoever in the historical accuracy of ancient Irish genealogies. The majority of academics accept that they are works of fiction and propaganda, designed to give credence to territorial claims and forge an artificial and made-up kinship between conqueror and conquered people. Anything from before the 8/9th century AD especially should be treated with the highest degree of suspicion. So I would disregard any link to Rudraige mac Sithrigi whatsoever as he is simply a legendary figure. There is also no such as thing as a genuinely historical High-King of Ireland until 846 AD, when the Ui Neill where making such claims, and even then the first to actually have any authority over the whole of Ireland was Brian Boru.

I've left messages on Claíomh Solais' talk page before in the past and he by on large simply ignores messages. Mabuska ^(talk) 10:53, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

Mabuska, thank you my friend. Thank you for the tip about the other Scottish and Northern Ireland Reynolds clans. There is also an English origin for some of the Reynolds clans. Yes, I agree with you, while its an interesting coincidence my DNA test tied me to some ancient Reynolds cousins, I can't be sure the DNA test Reynolds are descendants of Muintir Eolais. The DNA test also tied me to hundreds of other surnames too, and as I said, mainly Scottish surnames. I have to treat the results of the DNA test with skepticism, but at the same time, I try to give each piece of evidence some "weight", how strong is the evidence, what proof is there to back-up the evidence, and so on.

Mabuska, I will just have to keep tipping away on my own trying to solve my mystery of where my ancient ancestors came from. Thank you for the help, much appreciated! John37309 (talk) 14:18, 13 May 2015 (UTC)