User talk:Keresaspa/Archive 6

Ernie Elliott

That's a nice article you just created, Keresaspa!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:04, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

Cheers. I'll have to take a picture of his mural and add it to the article next time I'm up Woodvale way. Keresaspa (talk) 17:31, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

Oh has he got a mural? I'm surprised there isn't one of Robin Jackson. I know I've seen his photo somewhere.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 05:18, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

Yup, although it's not exactly a masterpiece to be honest. As far as I can remember it is the only bit of UDA-related business going on above Agnes Street. Regarding Jackson when I was down in Dublin I got my hands on a book about the Dublin and Monaghan Bombings by Joe Tiernan and there are mugshot pictures of pretty much all that crew in the book, including Jackson. It's a pretty grainy picture but he looks bloody psychotic in it with these really dead staring eyes. Of the others pictured Harris Boyle looks almost comical as his facial hair is like Ambrose Burnside's; Wesley Somerville looks like a thinner version of Basher Bate; John Bingham looks very young with a wispy moustache and those three all look a bit alike in fact with their sandy hair; Frenchie Marchant looks run of the mill, sort of like a fat taxi driver or something; Robert McConnell has a weird 50s brylcreem haircut but to my heterosexual male eyes could probably pass for quite handsome otherwise; Ken Gibson looks like an ageing Teddy Boy with his quiff and sideburns; Billy Hanna finally is the freakiest to my eyes as with his heavy moustache, thinning dark hair and frown he looks a little too much like me for comfort! I've never heard of a Jackson mural although who knows in one of those small Mid-Ulster towns that he used to stalk around? Keresaspa (talk) 00:51, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Seeing as those men are all dead, the photos can be scanned and uploaded to Wikipedia with a Non-Free Fair-Use rationale. That's what I did with Basher Bates and Lenny Murphy's photos. I scanned them from Taylor's book, then uploaded them to Wikipedia providing a Fair-Use Rationale. As for Jackson's dead staring eyes, I have noticed that trait in many paramiltaries, both loyalist and republican. They are like flat, expressionless disks. Was Jackson dark-haired or sandy-haired? You gave a good description of Frenchie; not really scary at all. I think Somerville was like something out of a horror film. Joe Tiernan is an amazing journalist-he always comes up with the goods. Thanks for adding Jackson's DOB. Strange, many Librans can be paradoxically violent. Does the book give Billy Hanna's DOB?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:26, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

I'll do that now in that case. I haven't done this before though so I'll see what you put for Bates and Murphy and more or less copy what you went with. Jackson seems dark haired to me but the picture of him is awful quality. He must have been pretty camera-shy! Somerville has a bit of a rodent look I think. Should I upload his pic seeing as he doesn;t have an article? Tiernan is a heck of a journalist and he certainly pulls no punches. Unfortunately it doesn't give a DOB for Hanna although it does say he was 42 in 1972 so that agrees pretty much with what we already have here. As an addendum I have uploaded them but can't get them to display in the articles. Do you know how to fix it? Fixed now. Keresaspa (talk) 23:29, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Thank you ever so much! The articles are vastly improved with the images. They really enhance the pages as people can now see what they looked like. I have seen Hanna, Jackson, and Bingham's photos before. Ditto for Boyle's and Frenchie's; however, I have never seen either McConnell or Gibson's pics before now. Both men look like East End gangsters from the late 50s-early 60s! I really appreciate your uploading the images. I wonder if I should create an article for Wesley Somerville?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:33, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

I just started it: Wesley Somerville. That photo just cannot go to waste!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:53, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Wow, that got good in a hurry. I have his image on my hard drive so I'll upload it now. Keresaspa (talk) 16:40, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Oh thank you. The photo looks great. It's amazing how photos of the subjects automatically upgrade the article's quality - people like to put a face on evil. Imagine opening your front door to find Robin and Wesley standing on the doorstep! I must say out of all them Billy Hanna is the most attractive. He looks more like a hard-as-nails trade unionist than a miltary man or UVF bomber. Wesley and Harris Boyle look like serial killers prowling American highways. Basher Bates is like something out of Deliverance. What a freak.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:50, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Boyle is pretty odd looking I reckon. He looks like a psycho yet at the same time he looks really young and fresh-faced. Wesley on the other hand looks like a surrealist painting. Robin Jackson really has the look though - that's the sort of face you would expect in a slasher movie or something. Hanna has a real Northern Ireland look - you see a lot of guys like round these parts and like you say a lot of them are trade unionists. And yes Bates does look a bit inbred! Keresaspa (talk) 16:55, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

John Bingham is also ordinary looking. I recall having seen his photo when he was shot-I was living in Dublin at the time and his murder made headlines. Oh, would your book happen to contain a photo of Parnell Street bomber David Alexander Mulholland? Regarding the May 1974 Dublin bombings, does Tiernan happen to say in his book whether Hanna and Jackson went back to the North upon loading the bombs onto the cars or did they accompany the bombers to central Dublin? The reason I ask is if thy had gone into Dublin what happened to Jacko's chicken lorry? Someone had to have driven it back North prior to the explosions. It would have been foolhardy to leave it in the North Dublin carpark.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:03, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Bingham looks like the sort of guy a 70s mum would have been happy for her daughter to bring round for tea. He's just so nonchalant looking. The only other loyalists pictured in the book are Billy Mitchell, whose picture you have already taken care of, and Samuel Carroll who doesn't have an article and probably isn't worth one either. I'll go through the book later to see about that issue. Unfortunately Tiernan didn't bother with an index so I'll need to just go through it to check. Keresaspa (talk) 16:59, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Did you read the bit I added to Bingham's article regarding the pigeons and the gun he allegedly put in Martin Dillon's mouth? Dillon didn't like Bingham (with good reason!!!!) yet strangely enough he seemed to like Billy Wright.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:10, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

Cripes it's little wonder he didn't like him. I had a gun pointed vaguely in my direction once by a soldier on the Grosvenor Road and it scared the hell out of me but having one jammed in your mouth! Yikes. And on an unrelated note I came across this picture you uploaded a while ago. Do you know where you took it? It looks familiar and the tower leads me to think it might be the City Hospital on the Lisburn Road but I can't quite place where. Keresaspa (talk) 17:18, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

As far as I remember it was the Dublin Road (it was taken 30 years ago-LOL). It was near where I stayed which was Pakenham Street.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:50, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

Not sure where exactly that is then. The Dublin Road as a whole has changed so much since the early 80s that is pretty much unrecognisable now. Keresaspa (talk) 19:22, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

I took a risk snapping that pic. Had the soldiers seen me they would have most likely stopped and confiscated my film for security purposes. It was a lucky shot that, catching them as they drove past without the photo being blurred.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 05:42, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

The cops still do that here, indeed if anything it has got worse since 9/11 gave governments an excuse for clamping down on everything. Sometimes I'll take pictures of them just because I'm not allowed. Childish I know but what the hey :D Keresaspa (talk) 16:50, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Billy Hanna

It was strange how the RUC just closed their files on him declaring the case unsolved. They didn't seem to think it odd when the Miami Showband attack happened four days later?! UVF mid-Ulster leader is shot dead; same brigade ambush the Showband. Do you think if Hanna hadn't been killed there would have been more bombs in Dublin (and other cities and towns in the south)? You'll notice that after Dublin and Monaghan (which according to Tiernan, Hanna regretted) in 1974, the UVF never carried out any large-scale bombing attacks. Hanna was obviously the bomb-making expert. Qualms however don't endear oneself to men like Robin Jackson. Imagine getting out of your car in the dead of night only to find Jackson there with his dead eyes dispassionately regarding you above a Luger?! I get the feeling Hanna didn't take him and Boyle seriously when he found them that night, having been their mentor and so many years their senior. That's why he said "What are you playing at?" (I would bet with withering contempt in his voice). Would you say Hanna's death was detrimental to the UVF? I believe his is the only death Jackson ever regretted.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 05:59, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

I personally have the feeling that Hanna might have been ready to finish with the UVF or at least to start going down the Gusty Spence path of looking to a political strategy. The bombings down south seemed to get to him as the reports of his feeling of remorse suggest and by and large loyalist leaders tended to be weeded out as they got on in years. I wonder if Jackson didn't kill him to send a message about only the ruthless being welcome in the UVF, especially as they were always a much more streamlined operation than the UDA. Keresaspa (talk) 01:29, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

That makes sense. Especially as Hanna was on the Brigade Staff and highly-regarded. The last thing Jackson and his crew wanted was for the UVF leadership to seek a political rather than a military solution. I wonder if Jackson was married or had kids? I honestly believe Hanna did feel remorse about the Dublin bombings. As a soldier, he would not have considered women and babies fellow combatants. Jackson obviously had no such qualms. It's strange the IRA never went after Jackson. Do you think as I do that he might have had a personal deal with the IRA? (Sort of a "You leave me alone and I don't go after you" type of arrangement)--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:57, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

I believe Jackson is one of those ones like Frankie Curry who would have been a killer whether there were troubles or not. There was just that bloodlust about him really. As for the IRA thing, it could well be the case. Living in Mid-Ulster maybe allowed a freer hand as he wasn't so close to republicans as the Belfast types but it does seem strange that somebody that active was never a target. Keresaspa (talk) 15:56, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Oh and I just remembered that you asked me to see if Tiernan said anything about Hanna and Jackson leaving Dublin before the explosions and indeed he did so I have added a line to the Billy Hanna article saying so. I would have done this earlier but I got caught up in creating IG Farben articles and forgot all about it! Keresaspa (talk) 17:48, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for adding that to the Billy Hanna page. I have also added it to the Robin Jackson article. I was puzzled about their actions after the cars were loaded with the bombs and Hanna wired them up. I wondered about Jackson's chicken lorry. I figured he had to have driven it back to the north before the bombs went off as leaving it in the north Dublin carpark would have been an act of sheer folly-the Gardai would have homed in to the Northern Ireland registration plates like magnets. Yes, Jacko was a born killer. Colin Wallace described him perfectly as a "hired gun". It was bizarre that the IRA never went after him. I am troubled by one thing regarding the Dublin bombings. If Hanna and Jackson headed back to the North before 4 pm, and the car bombs were parked about 15 minutes prior to their destinations, where did they go between the time Hanna wired up the bombs (before 4.00) and their arrival at the parking bays (around 5.15)? Very, very puzzling...cannot believe the drivers would have cruised around Dublin for over an hour with their deadly cargo in the boots. Oh, could you please give me more information on Eaton? Is it Eaton Publishers? Where is it located? Thanks.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:02, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Jackson drove for Moy Park though who were, and still are, one of the biggest food companies north and south so his lorry would have gone largely unnoticed. As for the cars Tiernan seems to reckon the bombs were wired with one hour timers so they were able to cruise about for a while. If it was me I would have dumped it ASAP in case it went off early but then again I suppose you need fanatical devotion to plant a car bomb. As for Eaton it is listed only as Eaton Publications with no other information. Keresaspa (talk) 17:47, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

It just showed how much faith they had in Hanna's bomb-making skills! Oh, I've added the bit about Moy Park to Jackson's article. Is it from the Tiernan book and would you happen to have the page number? Thanks. I would guess Hanna and Jackson wanted to get out of Dublin well before the bombs exploded in case they were caught.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:14, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Indeed Hanna must have known what he was doing and they must have trusted him completely. Perhaps trust like that gives another insight into why Jackson eventually decided he would rather Hanna wasn't around? Jackson working for Moy Park comes from Tiernan, page 90. They're still one of the bigger going concerns round here with branches in France and Holland and were even able to afford perimeter advertising at the last World Cup in South Africa. In fact I can think of fewer more surreal sites I have seen in my life than watching Switzerland play Honduras in front of advertising for a Craigavon chicken factory! Keresaspa (talk) 18:24, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

The juxtaposition of the squawking chickens and the bombs makes for a macabre scene. Jackson probably apprecaited the irony. How sickening. All that pain, death and agony those ghouls wrought in Dublin.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 19:19, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

No doubt about it there were some real atrocities in the 70s with all those bombings. Keresaspa (talk) 23:26, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

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Fritz Klein (Nazi)

Fritz Klein (Nazi) is an anomaly on the List of Nazis. He is lacking a citation proving that he was a Nazi.Hoops gza (talk) 00:13, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

Yes I know but I've looked and can't find one in English. His being in the Romanian Army until 1943 makes me wonder if he ever actually did get round to joining the Nazi Party. I would beloathe to say one way or the other as a source in German (or even Romanian) might exist but it might be an idea to move him from the List of Nazis into your list of unreferenced bluelinks page until/if such a source become available. Keresaspa (talk) 00:20, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

Somewhat unrelated, but would a citation of joining the Hitler Youth be the same as one of joining the NSDAP?Hoops gza (talk) 18:11, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

No, Hitler Youth membership was all but mandatory for boys in Nazi Germany and I can recall that when the fact that Pope Benedict XVI had been a member of the Hitler Youth was publicised all the Vatican press releases stressed that he had never been in the Nazi Party. There's also the issue that somebody might have joined the Hitler Youth in the 1940s and by the time they were an adult the war was over and the Nazi Party was gone. For these reasons I would have say that one doesn't necessarily indicate the other. Keresaspa (talk) 18:35, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

Thank you, I'm surprised at myself for having forgotten that about the HJ. On another note, the link you put for Heinrich Oster does not work, at least not for me.Hoops gza (talk) 22:07, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

Yeah the Wollheim Memorial (which is the site that link and those in the other IG Farben articles I have recently created) seems to be down right now after being fine yesterday. Hopefully it is just a temporary thing otherwise all those articles will be screwed as it was the main source. I'll leave it a week or so and hope that they come back before making any changes. Keresaspa (talk) 23:26, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

It's working again at my end. God, am I relieved! Keresaspa (talk) 01:24, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

Dublin bombings

I am curious about one thing. Perhaps the Tiernan book can clear it up. How did the actual bombers get down to Dublin? The men who drove the car bombs. I know the hijackers delivered the cars to the bombing team, but I presume after that they used different people to drive the car bombs to central Dublin. I'm wondering whether the hijackers from Belfast actually drove the three cars straight down to the Dublin carpark (where they met up with Hanna and Jackson) or did they deliver them to the team of drivers in Portadown or the Glenanne farm? Another alternative is that the scout cars transported the drivers. I cannot see Hanna risking any more cars than was necessary to drive across the border. So far we've got five cars (the three car bombs, plus the two scouts). It's a mystery.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:09, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

I just read in an article by Tiernan than 20 loyalists were involved in the Dublin bombing which would necessitate the use of a lot more than 5 cars. Apparently the two bombing teams converged on the carpark between 1.30 and 3.30 pm before Hanna and Jackson went back north.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 19:10, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

Here's Tiernan's full take on it with page numbers: Transport, in the form of cars for Hanna, Jackson, Billy Fulton and the others to travel to and from Dublin weeks before the bombing to get the feel of the place as well as the scout cars for the actual bombings, were provided by an unnamed Armagh businessman with UVF links (93). Two weeks before the bomb the explosives were left in a farmhouse, owned by a 1960s UVF member, five miles south of Portadown (93-94). A week later they were taken to RUC reservist James Mitchell's farm at Glenanne and mixed. (94) Jackson picked them up in the chicken van on the morning of the bomb and drove the chookmobile to the Coachman's Inn carpark in North Dublin. (94) Billy Mitchell and an unnamed UVF commander from east Belfast stole a car from the docks in Belfast and drove it straight to Dublin. This car, which was swiped the way a joyrider would rather than being hijacked, was driven down the main road to Dublin. (95) William Henry's blue Austin Maxi, which was hijacked that morning by the Dreamers, was driven straight to Dublin. Here Tiernan speculates if it had security clearance to make the trip but doesn't state that it did and doesn't give any evidence to suggest it did. (96) William Scott's Hillman Avenger was hijacked around 10 A.M. driven to Portadown to collect Mulholland and then driven by Mulholland to Dublin. (97) The "scout" cars were already in Dublin and eventually these rendezvoused with the stolen cars and ferried them to the Coachman's Inn one at a time. These scout cars also drove the bombers back up north after their work was done. (97) Hanna had instructed each driver to travel a different route into Dublin in case the Gardai had got wind of the plan and set up roadblocks. (98) Scout cars had been left parked at locations close to the Coachman's Inn and passengers in the hijacked cars were dropped off in order to commandeer these legal vehicles although Tiernan is a bit unclear here as he also implies that some of these scout cars may have already been manned. (98-99) Hanna stressed that the bomb cars should not be abandoned until as near explosion time as possible as NI registered cars abandoned in Dublin would immediately attract suspicion (clearing up what we were discussing the other day) (99). How the bombers got home is not clear but, according to Tiernan, it is widely believed that they drove back through Dublin city centre and then too a network of minor and back roads known as the "smuggler's route" into the north. (100) Each getaway car had three men in it, with possibly four in the Talbot Street car, and guns were being carried in each car in case they were stopped by Gardai and needed to shoot their way out. (101) Again when they got home is not known but they had crossed the border before 9 PM. (101) Where they crossed the border is also uncertain but Gardai believe it was around Hackballs Cross (a name that sounds so gruesome it makes my eyes water!) between Dundalk and Carrickmacross. (101) Tiernan also mentions that a rumour done the rounds that a small Gardai patrol was at Hackballs Cross but that, when they stopped the bombers cars, they were forced to let them through after being confronted by a bunch of heavily tooled-up men. He cautions however that no evidence has been provided to back up this claim and it is only a rumour. (101) Hanna and Jackson were very soon back at a soup kitchen they were running at a bingo hall in Mourneview (UWC strike still running of course) and indeed nobody in the area apparently even remembers the two being missing from it such was the speed of their operation. (101-102) According to an old woman interviewed by Tiernan Hanna was the "head buck cat" of this food parcel service which is not actually relevant to the original question but is just such a wonderful piece of archaic NI slang that I felt it needed sharing!

And if, after deciphering all that gibberish, you get a minute to add anything to Ken Barrett that would be grand as well. Keresaspa (talk) 19:13, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

I'll take a look at the Barrett article. Thank you for all the info. I added the bit about the soup kitchen to both Jackson and Hanna's articles, but all the details about the cars' rotes and all really needs to be on the main Dublin and Monaghan bombings article, not Hanna's and Jackson's. I think just saying the cars were driven from Belfast across the border down to the north Dublin car park is sufficient, don't you?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 19:58, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

Maybe mention that they were believed to have taken the smugglers route of minor and back roads as I think I've seen that mentioned elsewhere but otherwise there probably is not a need to go into too much detail as even Tiernan himself admits that there is a lot of speculation involved. Keresaspa (talk) 20:01, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

I mentioned the smuggler's route but left all the other details out lest it confuse the reader and draw them away from the roles played by Hanna and Jackson. I like your Ken Barrett article. It's a nicely-written, informative page. I'll see what I can find on him in the Peter Taylor book. It merits a higher rating than Start Class, though. I had to laugh at the old lady's description of Hanna as the "head buck cat" at the soup kitchen. I have added it as a footnote after the ref on Hanna's article. The idea of transporting bombs amongst squawking chickens, then returning to serve up food at a makeshift soup kitchen is too much! It just goes to show that fact is often more bizarre than fiction.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:08, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

I think head buck cat might have enter my everyday speech now. And indeed if it we didn't know this stuff to be true it would all sound like a rather surreal story. Keresaspa (talk) 18:00, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

Head buck cat has already become part of my daily speech-I now refer to my ginger tom Tony as a "head buck cat"! You know I inquired as to its origins over at Ref Desk Languages; an editor said he found it having been used in Missouri at the end of the 19th-century. This meant that Ulster immigrants had brought the expression to the USA. I was thinking about the logistics involved in bombing Dublin. For starters they would have required a hell of a lot of petrol to transport all those vehicles to Dublin and back. And yet despite the UWC strike they managed to procur it. Hmm..probably Hanna's Military Intelligence mates leant him a wee helping hand. The bombers were all likely chosen for their non-descript appearance which ruled out Jackson with his weird, staring eyes, McConnell with his glossy black hair and film star good-looks and fat-arsed Frenchie. Mulholland was described as ordinary-looking. I'm sure the others were as well. Tiernan doesn't say who drove the bomb cars to Talbot and South Leinster Streets? In the Barron Report it states that William Shannon, the owner of the Ford Escort stolen by Mitchell and comrade at the Docks was reported as stolen to the RUC at 10.30, sometime after 11.00 they alerted the Garda, who in turn put it on their lists at 12.15. Yet that car was never stopped and it was reportedly sighted in Dublin at 4.00 p.m.! I would say the timers were set for two hours and they drove about until about 5.15 per Hanna's orders regards parking the car bombs 15 minutes prior to detonation. You know, Keresaspa, that rumour about the Gardai having let the cars across the border does have the ring of truth about it. For some reason the Garda investigation ground to a halt despite knowing who the perps were. They were obviously hiding or protecting someone! At this stage, with all the key players dead, it's too late to unravel the entire story. Oh, do you like my additions to Ken Barrett? Check out the YouTube clip of him I put at the bottom.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:17, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

I found myself saying it today actually. Doesn't surprise me it made its way across the pond either as there's always been a steady stream from here over there. Tiernan doesn't mention who drove what car although on the issue of the petrol I wonder if the unnamed businessman who supplied the cars didn't also sell petrol and provide it too. If that's the case I can think of a name as to who it might be although to the best of my awareness he is alive so I won't say who. The rumour about the Gardai was a big one down south after the bomb, the logic being that they could never admit it happened as there was so much anger about the bombings and the thought that the national police let the bombers get away would have caused uproar. I wouldn't be surprised if it was true to be honest as the Gardai were a bit of an unprepared shambles during the early years of the Troubles, And indeed good work on Barrett - I knew you could add some good stuff as the Finucane case is one of your big strengths. Good find for the clip too. It's pretty eerie the way talks about murder like he's just talking about what he had for his dinner or Rangers last match. Keresaspa (talk) 19:50, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

I think I know which car dealers you mean but silence is golden. LOL. The Gardai were pretty much a shambles in the 1980s as well. I remember we had a bomb scare in Dublin and my boyfriend passed a typical bumbling Garda and said to me "do you honestly think someone like that could protect us from a UVF or UDA bomb team!"--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 20:01, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

There was a lot of complacency really. The RUC was always waiting on something but too many of the Gards expected to spend their days telling the time to old women coming out of St Theresa's. In some ways it was a good thing as they melted into the background a bit whereas the RUC always seemed to be in your face, waving machine guns about and marching giant dogs into shops but when something did kick off, like you say, you wouldn't have bet on them being much use. Keresaspa (talk) 20:12, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

On the other hand, the Gardai could be even more heavy-handed than the RUC. I remember I'd a flatmate from Omagh who took part in the 1981 Hunger Strike protest outside the British Embassy in Dublin. He ran away after the Gardai attacked the protestors. My friend said he'd rather face a hundred armed and grim-faced RUC men than one snarling 6'4 Garda from Offaly swinging a baton!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 09:17, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

+Never trust a biffo! Mind you until the stories come out about Gardai shoving pencils where they shouldn't go I think the RUC have them licked. Keresaspa (talk) 02:17, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I've heard accounts about what went on in holding centres. Sometimes it involved the use of a seductive female officer to fondle the prisoner in an attempt to extract information. I remember a conversation I had with my Dubliner ex-husband regarding my theories about the Dublin bombings. I suggested that perhaps the Irish Government was blackmailed by the loyalist paramiltaries into not prosecuting the bombers. Remember the Gardai had the names of most of the perps including "Buck Cat" Hanna and Mulholland. It's possible they threatened more attacks in the South in Dublin and throughout the country which would bring tourism to a grinding and ruinous halt (summer was approaching). The UVF could well have blackmailed the Government into paying protection money as well against further bombings. The reasons for my hypothesis are these: 1. Nobody claimed the attacks which is strange considering the kudos in doing so as well as the terrorising effect on both Southerners and the nationalist commubity in the North. Yet by not claiming them, the UVF provided the Irish Gov. with an excuse not to pursue the bombers. 2. Despite the success of the four attacks, the UVF never carried out anymore. Why not? They clearly proved they were capable of doing so. Hanna could very well have organised more and he hadn't yet distanced himself from the UVF. 3. The Gardai proved ineffectual at warding off attacks. Ireland did not have the manpower to stop an all-out loyalist campaign in the South. 4. The UVF didn't bother to change the Northern plates on the cars (one of which was already reported to the Garda as stolen!!!) This was a brazen in-your-face affront and means of showing up Gardai inefficiency. And if the rumour is true about the Garda unit having let the bombers go, well that just strengthens my theory.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:15, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

For point one I would say that not claiming it had a lot do with them being legal at that point and not wanting to be banned again, whilst McGurk's Bar bombing indicated they had form for not claiming attacks on civilian targets. For the second point it could be that they expected much tighter security from that point on and viewed the initial attacks as a one-off chance to take advantage of a state of unpreparedness. The third point is equally true of a republican all-out war in Britain so I don't know if it would be enough to hold a state to ransom. Had a loyalist all-out campaign started down south the Irish government might have worked more closely with the IRA too so I don't think it's necessarily true that they would not have been able cope. The fourth point however is inexplicable. My personal belief is that the bombers were sheltered by the British authorities after the event as a sort of payback for all the on the run Provies holed up in Dundalk and Drogheda. At this point in the Troubles I reckon Ireland and Britain were still on a fairly hostile footing and it wasn't until Maggie and Charlie cosied up in the 80s that such a footing changed so mistrust and petty politics were as much to blame as anything. Keresaspa (talk) 00:57, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

Another reason the UVF may have had for bombing the south would have been to ensure a larger Gardai and Irish Army presence along the border thus curtailing IRA smuggling activities, which was a big source of income for the IRA. This was Dillon's theory as to the motive behind the Miami Showband attack. I agree that there was British miltary assistance in the Dublin bombings; after all Hanna worked closely with the Intelligence lads in Lisburn. In the event of Ireland blaming Britain for the attacks, I read they would have claimed "sovereign immunity". The problem is most of the key players are dead; however, I have a sneaky suspicion who the Talbot Street bomber might have been and he is very much alive still. I had read that Robin Jackson had wanted to carry out more attacks in the south. I believe the Brigade Staff refused to sanction them because the 1974 bombings had achieved their purpose: namely the collapse of the power-sharing Executive and a general feeling in the South not to have anything to do with the North. Further attacks would have likely undermined the advantage the UVF obtained and generate the opposite effect by provoking the South to form stronger links with the IRA.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:35, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

There's also the issue that Harold Wilson and Merlyn Rees had one eye on pulling out of Northern Ireland and making it independent. If that had happened I suspect that the Irish Army would have invaded immediately and given the strength of Irish lobby in the US they would have had their backing. Too much UVF bombing down south might well have forced Wilson and Rees's hands as they would be keen not to be associated with that resulting in the doomsday scenario. The UVF probably could have fought a long-term guerilla war against the southern army but the downside would have been the sort of treatment the British Army had dished out to republicans being turned on loyalists. It all would got very nasty in a hurry. And I reckon we're thinking of the same one for Talbot Street - alive and well as you say. Keresaspa (talk) 17:50, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

When I lived in Dublin, my friends feared a British withdrawal from the North would have engulfed the entire island in a horrific, bloody civil war costing thousands of lives. Yes, I know you are thinking of the same person I am thinking of. And very much alive.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:16, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

The way Wilson had in mind probably would have and from cabinet papers released a couple of years back he was apparently on the verge of doing it more than once. Keresaspa (talk) 18:25, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

One more for the (Shankill) Road

How do you like my latest: Bayardo Bar attack? Do you know where this took place?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:24, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Very nice. I know the place well, it's on the middle Shankill just past Agnes Street (the unofficial dividing line between lower and middle Shankill) on a strip of streets named after places in Scotland. The Rex Bar is just a bit up the road so it's solid UVF turf. There is a sort of memorial garden/plaque/pictures thing on the site of where the Bayardo Bar more or less was. I'll try to get an image for the article soon but I've had no luck on that score so far as there always seems to be roadworks in front of it or cars parked beside it obscuring the view. I'll get it in the long run but it might take me a while as that is probably the busiest part of the Shankill (which probably explains why it was targeted). Keresaspa (talk) 18:41, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Four of the dead were civilians. The UVF Brigade Staff were patrons of the pub along with Lenny Murphy. IRA Intelligence would have known this of course.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 19:16, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Indeed. It's UVF central round that part of the road - the image I put in the Frenchie Marchant article of the commemorative plaque is very close to that spot for instance. And as you say there can be no doubt the IRA would have known all about that. Keresaspa (talk) 19:20, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for your additions to the article; as usual they are excellent. I wonder if the IRA had received false info about a Brigade Staff meeting that night?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:08, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

I just discovered that according to an IRA prisoner, fellow inmate Lenny Murphy told him that he had left the Bayardo ten minutes prior to the attack and that the Brigade Staff meeting held inside had just ended. So there had indeed been a meeting. I also found out the name of Bik's accomplice, who was Peter "Skeet" Hamilton. I also found a high-resolution Victor Patterson photo of the Bayardo Bar just after the bombing. If you do a Google with the key words: Bayardo Bar Aberdeen Street you'll come across it. Unfortunately it's copyrighted and I cannot claim Fair-Use. I hadn't realised The Bayardo was so close to the corner of the Shankill. I imagine The Eagle was not too far away.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:36, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure where the Eagle actually was to be honest but if we assume it was beside the Eagle Bar then the Royal Bar (as it is now known) is literally a two minute walk from where Bayardo was. And indeed, the Bayardo was on the corner, just like the Royal, the Rex and the Mountainview (which was itself hit in a bomb attack in 1976). I didn't manage to get the picture of the monument today as it has been a stinker here weather-wise and a schlep out to the Shankill wasn't possible. And is the image you are talking about the one on the Victor Patterson website? I can tell you that area looks nothing like that now. Keresaspa (talk) 17:41, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

Why has it changed? Are all the old brick-and-plaster terraced buildings gone? What a pity. When I visted Belfast in the early 1980s, all those old structures were still standing; by the mid-1980s most of them had been torn down and repalced with ugly modern edifices. I have never got around to visting the Shankill. Now I wish I had done so. I remember Sandy Row still looked the same last time I was in Belfast. That Patterson photo is good. You can see that the force of the bomb had blown the bar counter up onto some planking. I wonder how much the bomb weighed? I have a theory that someone in the IRA had tipped off the Brigade Staff that the Bayardo was about to be bombed. From the IRA's viewpoint, it would have been fatal to wipe out members of the Brigade Staff as it would have resulted in rivers of bloodshed and parhaps civil war. At any rate, the IRA leadership would have been worried the UVF would strike at their senior members.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:32, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

A lot of it has been redeveloped and there are old terraced houses up the top near Woodvale that are all sealed up waiting on demolition now. It's the same in the Village on Donegall Road as half the streets there have been recently knocked down and a lot of the rest have been sealed up too. It is a shame as the individual character of a lot of areas is just disappearing. I went round Carrick Hill in inner city north Belfast the other day and it could just be anywhere now. In its heyday it had a reputation as being the most slummy part of Belfast but now it looks no different to Ballysillan, Taughmonagh, Ballymacarret, the upper Falls or even the estates in Newtownabbey. The town planners in Belfast just demolish everything for the hell of it really. Obviously I wouldn't state on a public forum that councillors are on the take from the building firms as that wouldn't be not an untrue falsehood. Sandy Row itself still looks pretty similar to how it always did but some buildings have demolished and replaced with nothing, there is a big new hotel at the bottom and the streets leading off it have all been redeveloped. I wouldn't be a complete Luddite as I accept some real slums do have to gotten rid of as they are uninhabitable but Belfast used to have a distinct character but increasingly it is just the same as everywhere else and that is a real shame. Keresaspa (talk) 18:05, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

I was just watching a lot of ols clips of the Shankill on YouTube. A city's buildings are what gives it a unique character of its own Imagine if all the palazzos of Venice were knocked down to be replaced by modern office blocks?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:15, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

This video was it? Some great old footage there, although that music is God awful as it really doesn't fit the time period. They should have put on that UDA song on the other video that used to be on YouTube before some moron deleted it. And speaking of office blocks if you ever go down to the area round the old docks it is all big glass monstrosities now, most of which are lying empty because the recession has absolutely crippled this city. Since the Troubles came to an end the developers have ripped the heart out of this city and it is now just so faceless. Sure the City Hall and the big cranes are still there but Belfast was always defined by its districts and they all just look identical now. Keresaspa (talk) 18:27, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for uploading the image of the memorial. It looks great. That 17-year-old girl who was killed (Linda Boyle) reminds me of many girls I went to high scool with. She was very pretty-so sad to die young in a bomb explosion in the midst of singing and laughter. Yes, I love that 1973 Shankill video. All those classic Belfast faces. I remember when I first visited Belfast in 1981, the people still looked like that (albeit wearing different styles of clothing). A really typically Belfast face is at 44-48. I saw loads of stern-faced men like him, especially around Sandy Row. I agree about the choice of music. An old Van Morrison song would have been perfect to use or else a hit song from 1973. I left a comment on the page. Oh, do you recognise the section of the Shankill? Is it near Aberdeen Street? A lot of videos have been removed from YouTube besides that UDA clip including the Mid-Ulster UVF gun lecture which I'm sure features Billy Hanna. I cannot abide people who want to censor and/or destroy history. There is an interesting four-part tour of the Shankill conducted by the very good-looking Wayne McCullough. In the first part he stops at a scrapdealers at the Lower Shankill and there is a statue of an eagle impaled nearby. Why did the eagle have so much significance on the Shankill?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:35, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

The sunlight coming in from the left-hand side annoys me a tad but like I say it's always very busy round that part and I had to stand in the road to get a full shot so I had to take what I could get. Luckily all the pictures came out properly. The guy with the feg really does have that Belfast look as we're certainly an angry looking town. We've tended to be a bit behind the times too - look at the hunger strikers in 81 who all look early 70s with their long hair and big moustaches. Mind you some of us are still rocking the big moustache look even if male pattern baldness has made long hair a no-no! The guy just after the one minute mark looks eerily like my uncle but to the best of my awareness he never set foot on the Shankill. One thing has changed though is the amount of people as the Shankill is never that packed now, except maybe on the Twelfth. As for location for the most part it is hard to tell because so much of that stuff has been demolished now. The part with the tank looks to be around the West Kirk church/Berlin Street which is just a bit up from Bayardo, whilst at one point you can see a sign saying Spier's Place and that is about 100 yards from the Bayardo. Looks nothing like that now though. The really steep part is either just past Peter's Hill at the bottom of the road or else the very top near Woodvale as they are the only parts that dip that sharply. I think I saw the Wayne McCullough doc when it was. It was part of a series of Belfast people looking at their won district so there was Jim McDowell doing Donegall Pass, Gerry Armstrong on the Falls etc. As for the eagle statue - I associate those with the start of the Upper Newtownards Road or the Saintfield Road where rich gits will put a pair of them on pillars at the side of their front gate as a status symbol. I wouldn't like to cast aspersions but if I had to guess how one ended up on the Shankill I would suggest some hood nicked and sold it to the scrapdealer for a bit of drink money! And if any Shankill Roaders are passing and see this, only joking :D Keresaspa (talk) 19:29, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

Yes, the people in the clip are dressed slightly behind the fashions of 1973. For instance nobody is wearing any glam rock gear or huge platform shoes which had been the fashion in Britain since 1972. All those ladies' coats were from the 1960s or early 1970s and those beehives! When I lived in Dublin I knew a guy from Belfast who still wore a completely out of fashion flared leather jacket from 1974-and this was in 1982! The RUC men in the clip are just strolling casually amongst the shoppers, who all seem to be carefree. Apart from the tank, you really wouldn't guess the Troubles were in full swing with bombings a regulare occurance throughout the North.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:37, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

It's the same now to be honest as all the spides in their tracksuits don't look much different to the way they did in the early 90s. They can pretend it is cosmopolitan but Belfast will never rival Paris and Milan in the fashion capital stakes! Keresaspa (talk) 01:46, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

The Eagle has landed

Eureka! I think I have found it! I was just doing a Google webcam of Shankill and Aberdeen Street corner and I noticed several interesting things. First of all, the site of the Bayardo is just a couple of doors up from the PUP offices which in its turn is close to a verrrrry interesting looking old brick building with Union Jacks displayed and its upper windows bricked up. I'm talking about the Tudor Café. What do you think? Could that be the former "Eagle chip shop"? It's near an edifice called Harry Corry. Another thing, I've discovered why they likely named the Bayardo after the famous racehouse. In the 19th century, at the exact location of the Bayardo, was the premises of a William Stewart, horse dealer! Interesting stuff, no?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:00, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

Could be. Like I say not sure where the Eagle was as it's before my time although I still wonder about the Royal Bar being formerly the Eagle and if "Eagle" was one of those local names like the Hammer, Banjo, the Nick and Bower's Hill that the old Shankill was so fond of. I know that block quite well though as until recently the butchers had a giant ceramic cow outside of it which was a sight to behold! The Progressive Unionist office is gone now and last I heard they were in terrible debt so presumably they had to ditch it. Harry Corry deals in curtains and accessories and has branches all NI - dear auld hole according to my ma! I got a copy of Paul Hamilton's "Up the Shankill" in Holywood recently and he mentions that the Shankill had a lot of horses back in the day. Mind you even in my own childhood there were horses in the Market and its only really since the last ten years or so that they have stopped being a regular sight. Something else the council has forced out maybe! Keresaspa (talk) 18:56, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

Is the Tudor café still there? What a pity they demolished so much of the Shankill. It looks really desolate with all those ugly, garish low, single-level buildings and parking lots. Why didn't they just upgrade all those characteristic brick terraced edifices rather than tearing them down? Sandy Row hasn't changed that much though. I recognised it the last time I was in Belfast. However, over on Flickr, I saw a series of ols photos taken in the early 1970s in Britannic Street which is no more. What a shame-all those old houses. Oh where did the Shankill bombing take place? The lower Shankill?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:30, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

Off the top of my head I can't actually remember if Tudor café is still there. That block is still standing but whether or not that building is still being used as a coffee shop I can't recall. Sandy Row hasn't changed that much but it's only a matter of time. They're in the process of demolishing the Village right now so I don't think it will be long until they move on down the Donegall Road. A bunch of old terraced houses on the upper Shankill are also sealed up waiting to get totalled. Round the University area it is pretty common to part demolish and rebuild houses over the summer whilst keeping the facades and basic structures intact. This could easily be done in the council owned areas but bribery talks louder than sense. The Shankill bombing took place more or less where the Linfield shop is now, near the Methodist Church on Berlin Street. Still the middle Shankill although getting closer to the upper (although I'm not sure where the dividing line between middle and upper is - probably near the library). I guess in those days the UDA and UVF were still happy to co-exist as that is deep in UVF turf. Funnily enough though in Woodvale there is a joint UDA-UVF memorial plaque so even now co-operation isn't unheard of. Keresaspa (talk) 01:44, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

I've been doing quite a bit of editing on the Shankill Road bombing article. Why did the IRA entrust the bomb to someone like Begley?! Also you note how Kelly remained by the door while Begley went to the counter. That 11-second timer would not have allowed anyone who was not beside the entrance to escape in time, not even Begley. What do you think would have happened had Adair and the others been upstairs at the time of the explosion?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 09:42, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

In the short term had Adair been killed the retaliation would have been more brutal. In the longer term I suppose it would depend on who emerged as new leader. If it was Jim Spence then maybe the Troubles might have ended earlier under orders from the government. Mind you if some whack-job like Stephen McKeag had taken over C Company things might have been even worse, so it's hard to tell really. As for Begley. Suicide mission? I'm still convinced the Corporals killings were a suicide job designed to balance the international press reaction to the Milltown Cemetery attack so it wouldn't surprise me. Keresaspa (talk) 15:16, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

Interesting theory about the Corporals killings. Were the entire UDA Inner Council meant to be having a meeting that day or just Adair and C Coy? I don't think Begley was on a suicide mission. He was just the dupe who let Kelly have the safe spot by the door. Who ordred the Shankill attack? Ardoyne Batt, Belfast Brigade or higher up still? Eleven seconds to get all the shoppers out beggars belief. Had they been able to issue thewarning those serving behind the counter, Begley and the customers at the counter wouldn't have had a chance. Just those near the door would have perhaps made it to safety. Oh, I came across an article by Kevin Myers that mentioned the Eagle chip shop as having been close to Spiers Place. Now how far is that from the Bayardo?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 15:24, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

I'll check the books later about the Shankill bombing as I'm not sure of the details off-hand. Spier's Place is where Frenchie's memorial is. If you walk quickly you could probably get from there to the Bayardo in about thirty seconds so a stone's throw away. Mind you according to a forum post (so not a reliable source for Wikipedia but I've usually found this particular one to be pretty accurate) the location of the Eagle chip shop was on the corner of Mountjoy Street. That is a bit further up the road and would place it as facing the Shankill library. That whole block has been demolished some time ago and is in now a car park/waste ground. That would still make the Eagle and Bayardo close, albeit more like a five minute apart, although they would still be on the same side of the road and the Bayardo would probably have been the first boozer you would pass if walking down from Mountjoy Street on that side. There are boards with bits about Shankill history attached to the chicken wire around the "car park" so I'll stop and read them next time I'm up in case they have something like "the Eagle chip shop stood on this site" written on them. Keresaspa (talk) 16:37, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

Hmm...While I usually find forums a gold mine of info (although not RS enough for Wikipedia) there seems to be some doubt about the Eagle having stood on Mountjoy Street. Spier's Place is as you say, closer and Steve Bruce stated in his book that The eagle was just around the corner from the Bayardo. I just posted the question on Ref Desk Humanities. Perhaps some Shankill local who lived there in the 1970s recalls its precise location. Is Spier's Place only on one corner of the Shankill?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:30, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

A change of premises seems to be the obvious answer to this. Keresaspa (talk) 00:54, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

William "Frenchie" Marchant holds the key

Does the memorial at Spier's Place say that Frenchie Marchant was shot at that exact spot? According to Dillon in The Dirty War, Marchant was shot outside "The Eagle" as he waited for Jim Craig who instead got out of his car on the corner of Conway Street talking to someone outside the Inter-City furniture shop. Fifty yards away, Marchant was shot dead. Would Spier's Place be 50 yards away from Conway Street? There is a shop adjacent to the Spier's Place monument called Home Furnishings. Could that have been the site of "The Eagle"?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:41, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

The Eagle is also being described as on the corner of Spier's Place on the same forum. Still not a reliable source of course. Marchant's memorial commemorates three UVF members from the Shankill killed at various times and makes no reference to where they died (Trevor King and Davy Hamilton being the other two). Spier's Place, to the best of my awareness, used to be an actual street whereas now it isn't. It's hard to visualise really but there is the furniture shop on one side and nothing on the other except a piece of open ground that is really part of the Shankill Road and serves as a car park for the Co-Op. As far I'm aware it used to be a proper street so if the Eagle was there it might have been on the furniture shop or it might have been on the other side that doesn't exist any more. I wouldn't pin much hope on the Ref Desk Humanities either though as it won't be a reliable source either. In terms of stating in articles the exact location I reckon we'll just have to continue with it being on the Shankill Road. Keresaspa (talk) 00:27, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

BINGO!! The ref desk proved the right course to take after all. An editor provided a link to a forum which had uploaded a very old Shankill Road directory that showed The Eagle Supper Saloon as having been at 214 Shankill Road at its corner with Spier's Place. I would imagine that had metamorphised into the Eagle chippy. Looking at the Google street map, number 214 is now Home Furnishings! And the upper windows are still functional. The Belfast Forum said that "The Eagle" chippy was located on the corner of Shankill Road and Spier's Place, and owned by a Sammy Kirkwood! Oh and that directory gave number 174 Shankill at Aberdeen (site of Bayardo Bar) as having been the premises of a Martha Glover, spirit's merchant.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:29, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Old Belfast images

Dublin Road and Pakenham Street?

This shows the way Belfast looked when I first visited it in April 1981. I believe I was standing at a bomb site near Sandy Row

Well, after checking Google webcam of Belfast, I found that Pakenham Street (where I stayed) has been redeveloped but the houses are in the same style as when I was there so look very familiar. I believe the photo of the Army in the landrover was takem at the corner of Pakenham Street and the Dublin Road. What do you think? Also the photo of me was taken near Sandy Row as far as I recall.Does that seem likely based on the position of the Divis flats in the background?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 09:57, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Second picture is the easiest as that's almost certainly Sandy Row. Looks nothing like that now mind you - all those sort of houses are gone. There are a few of that type left in the Village but they're getting knocked down right now. That's not Divis flats though as they were never that visible from Sandy Row. In actual fact that's the main tower of the City Hospital. That being the case (and it is, as it looks pretty much the same now) the first picture couldn't be from Pakenham Street as you can't see the City from there. The main tower looks the same from two sides so my best estimates would either be the Lisburn Road around what is now called Jubilee Road, taken from around Methodist College or else the Donegall Road around what is now Oban Street (about two minutes from Sandy Row). Both those areas have been really heavily redeveloped (including a whole new network of streets around the hospital) so I couldn't say for sure which it is. That and the fact I was about one and a half when they were taken! Where Pakenham Street led on to the Dublin Road if you looked across to the other side of the street there was an antiquarian bookshop and just down from that there was a stamp shop. I was a stamp collector as a kid (yup, cool dude me) but I didn't go there much as my main interest was German stamps and they didn't deal in them. I only found out later it was owned by people who had fled the Holocaust so it's small wonder they didn't. My main haunt was on Victoria Street near the Dunbar Link but I lost interest about 23 years ago and the place has long since closed. I was only in the bookshop once as it had a reputation for not liking working class people and that was when it was closing down. That was probably the early 90s and a lot of those old buildings have been demolished now. The HQ of the Orange Order was on Dublin Road for a while but that's a "car park" (i.e. waste ground) now. And good work on the Eagle although of course we still can't use a forum on here! Keresaspa (talk) 00:46, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

I bought some used books (which I still own) in that Dublin Road bookshop across from Pakenham Street! I saw an interesting old building the other day on the Google webcam of Belfast. It's on the corner of Craven Street and the Shankill Road. Do you know it? Fabulous old edifice.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:21, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

Well call me shamefaced as I don't believe I have ever noticed that building before in my life. Could be that they've tore it down since making those Google Maps (as is the case for parts of Tiger's Bay, Carrick Hill and your old stamping ground off Dee Street) or it could be that I'm just an unobservant muppet. To be fair to myself I tend to walk on the other side of the road as there is a charity shop near there that I often visit. The old Shankill Mission was facing that building so it could be something to do with them or it could be the Orange Star Social Club that the IPLO shot up in 1989. Or something else entirely. I'll probably be up that way tomorrow so I'll have a lookout. Keresaspa (talk) 00:43, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

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By George, I think I've found it

Between 3.15 and 3.36 in that old 1973 Shankill Road clip it shows the Eagle! It's located at the corner of Spier's Place and there's a blue van parked outside. The building is taller than its neighbours and there's a huge verticle sign with Eagle in bold letters. There's more writing on the shop front but I cannot make it out.I assume this is the chip shop. At 3.51 behind a white van there appears to be The Bayardo Bar on the corner up from the Eagle.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 14:31, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Yup that's it. It's obviously being filmed from the corner of Snugville Street where the Eagle Bar was (Royal Bar now). All the buildings to the left of the Eagle are gone now - it's a carpark/open space in front of a Co-op. That's what I meant when I said half of Spier's Place has disappeared. I'm afraid my old eyes don't work quick enough to pick out the Bayardo though. And the building you were asking about yesterday is still standing but is in the process of being done up so I missed it because it is surrounded in hoardings. For once it looks like they are going to convert an old building rather than just trash it. A bit of sense by Belfast City Council? Is that flying pigs I see? Keresaspa (talk) 20:13, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

That old building on Craven/Shankill corner is fabulous. I'm glad it's being renovated rather than demolished. That co-op with open space is an eyesore. Whoever designed that should be proud that his artistry and eye for beauty will be admired centuries from now as sheer architectural genius (NOT!) It really looks forlorn-that missing block to the left of Spier's Place. In the clip it was lined with a terrace of old edifices. I read on Belfast Forum a bit about Spier's Place. Behind the Eagle on Spier's Place (to the left of the memorial/mural to Marchant & Co) was a B-Specials hut. There was also a fire brigade located there. That large building on the left corner of Spier's Place (now sadly gone) was YMCA and beside that was a shop called Wilson's. That can be seen in the clip. The Bayardo can be seen behind a white van. It's on the next corner down from the Eagle. Snugville Street is where Davy Payne lived when he died in 2003. I presume that clip was mainly done on the south side of the Middle Shankill facing east (towards Belfast City Centre). The military vehicle is arriving from the direction of the city centre. It'0s diffiuclt for me to judge seeing as I have never set foot on the Shankill. God, now I wish I had gone there on all my trips to Belfast! Stupid me. I should not have listened to people who advised me not to set foot on it being a dodgy area. The last time I was in Belfast in 2001 I didn't go because of that UDA/UVF feud taking place there.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:01, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

You were right to listen to be honest as the Shankill was extremely unwelcoming in its day. As a matter of fact before 2010 I was only on it twice - once around 2000 when I went into Beirut with a mate (long story, some not repeatable here) and then near Christmas 2009 just to see what it was like. Different times now in some ways although there are still parts of it that it's pretty dodgy to go into. Go down any of the roads linking to the Falls or Springfield and you will be watched like a hawk - I went down the West Circular Road yesterday and its an uncomfortable experience. Mind you go up them from the other side and the same thing happens so I'm not just singling out the Shankill. Obviously it's understandable as both sides tended to attack each other through these routes (and still do to an extent) so there is a legacy of fear but to me as a south Belfaster it seems odd as that didn't really happen here. The lower Ormeau and Donegall Pass were pretty close to each other but people would walk between them even at night and there was only very occasionally trouble. The worst place for that though is Tiger's Bay where people come out of their houses to stare at you if they don't know you. I also wouldn't fancy being on the Shankill at night given the volume of hood/FAP graffiti on the walls these days, not to mention the plethora of extreme right wing stickers that have appeared on the lampposts these last couple of months, including those cartoons of Muhammad and a bunch of racist shite from the malevolent British People's Party. It is worth a daytime visit if you are in Belfast and want to see some Troubles related sights and these days the North Street taxis (UVF-run) do tours of the murals whilst the tour buses (UDA-run) also go up. To be honest though they're both rip-offs as it isn't a long road and can easily be walked up. My usual route would be up as far as Glencairn then across Twaddell Avenue or the Upper Woodvale and either down the Crumlin Road or through Ardoyne and down the Oldpark Road. That whole side of town has plenty to see to be honest and is a lot closer to the reality of the city than the sanitised and faceless city centre. Keresaspa (talk) 20:44, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

Back in 1986 somewhere in south Belfast, I bought an old print of Castle Street taken in late 19th/early20th century. I still have it hanging on my living room wall. Anyway, did a Google webcam of the street as it appears today----most of those wonderful old buildings are gone. Only a couple of them are still standing. What are the planners playing at? Speaking of the Shankill, I read on a Forum the other day how some people went for a walk along one of the sidestreets to track down a house belonging to one of the Shankill Butchers and they were stoned by a small boy! Honestly, would you go around hunting the Butchers' homes and old drinking dens? That could be dangerous seeing as some of those players from the 70s are still alive. My friend took me on a tour of Belfast in 1981: the city centre, Sandy Row, Falls Road, Shaftesbury Square (where we stayed), Stranmillis, Queens University area, other loyalist areas whose names I forget, but he refused to take me to the Shankill, claiming that it was dodgy and that some of the Butchers hadn't been caught. He also claimed that gangs in the Shankill area would often stop strangers and order them to sing "The Sash" to prove they were not republican spies. I now wish I had gone, at least on the main road. Oh, we went into a loyalist souvenir shop in Sandy Row where they sold Orange sashes and f..k the Pope badges; the middle-aged proprietor (who looked and sounded like Ian Paisley) followed us out of the shop and watched uslike a hawk until we turned the corner. That weekend we were also stopped and questioned in the city centre by a UDR soldier. We walked the streets of south Belfast at night and nobody bothered us. I must say that was the best weekend I have ever had! Went to some great parties. All hosted by loyalists/Unionists! I recall being chatted up by a guy from Dundonald. Oh, I must add another tragic loss: the Pound Loney. All that history and cultural treasure wiped out forever.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:56, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

1981 on the Shankill? I'm with your mate on that one. Castle Street never struck me as much good, although I was on it (and still am) several times a week so familiarity breeds contempt and all that. The one thing I am glad to see the back off is the bloody barricades at the end of the street. They were a frigging nightmare! And there still is a loyalist shop in Sandy Row. I was in it once years ago looking British National Party material (not because I support them - which I most definitely do not - but because I wrote my doctoral thesis on them) but they didn't have any so I left empty-handed. For those that way inclined the one on the lower Newtownards Road is a lot more welcoming. Keresaspa (talk) 19:46, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Belfast city centre building

near Belfast City Hall, 2001

What is the name of this beautiful old building near City Hall? Please tell me it's still there!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 13:40, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Church House, Fisherwick Place. It was still ther last time I checkt anyway! ~Asarlaí 14:46, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Thank you. I used to pass it whenever I visited Belfast, but never knew its name. ovely old building. I presume it's Victorian.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 14:50, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

What my learned friend said. Has its own site. The ground floor is used as a sort of shopping centre (called Spires) for Presbyterian bookshops and a couple of fancy dan clothes shops now. Where that picture was taken would be near the Grand Opera House. There was a cinema beside it but it is gone now and they have stuck an annex onto the opera house. It is in a style that completely clashes with the existing building and is regularly voted the ugliest building in Belfast, which is saying something given the crap they have thrown up recently. There was another cinema directly facing Church House which has also been totalled to make way for a Jury's Hotel which, to be fair, is a lot more innocuous than the eyesore on the side of the Grand Opera House. Keresaspa (talk) 19:53, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

I was reading about some of the old cinemas in Belfast. I believe the Astoria Picture House was in East Belfast on the Newtownards Road?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:56, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

It was in Ballyhackamore, the posh part of the Newtownards Road where you have those eagles we previously discussed. Shock horror it's gone now - turned into a telephone exchange apparently. The latest place to go is the old Athletics stores in Queen Street which Be£fast City Coun$il have approved for demolition in order to build more bloody "apartments" that nobody can afford. There will soon be no city centre left with these bribe hungry scum! Keresaspa (talk) 17:29, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Disgusting! What a waste of a beautiful building that no modern architect could ever hope to emulate. I have been expanding the Sandy Row article. Have you ever seen photos of the long-gone Crescent and Klondyke Bars? All the houses on Rowland Street are long gone as well.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 11:01, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Good job on Sandy Row. It was in a bit of a state up to now but it looks a decent article after your edits. Keresaspa (talk) 17:33, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Thank you. I just had a look at the Falls Road over on Belfast Webcam. Where has it gone? It's even more unrecogniable than the Shankill! Where the Clonard cinema stood near the corner of Leeson Street is a row of modern houses. It has no character at all. I took a pic of the Falls with a couple of derelict buildings...long gone. I'm still sick over the scheduled demolition of the Athletic Club building. The property developers are destroying Belfast more completely than the Luftwaffe and paramilitary bombings combined!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:42, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

It has been like that since the Troubles ended. The worst part is Sailortown which is completely unrecognisable, to the point where whole roads have disappeared. Alongside that they sunk a bunch of money into pointless rebuilding plans that they can no longer afford as a result of the property crash a few years back. As a result there is a huge spread facing the Short Strand that used to be Sirocco Works and is now a giant patch of waste ground with two small buildings on it. The site has a sign on it full of old crap about the "biggest development in Europe" but half of has fallen off and now serves as a gravestone for their pointless ambitions. Something similar happened in Corporation Street where luxury apartments (the name "flats" having been sacrificed apparently) were to be built but the developer went belly-up and there is now just a pile of bricks that the hoods sometimes nick. Belfast has been absolutely raped by the filth on the council and will continue to be as long as the same old faces keep being re-elected. It's not as if most of these buildings couldn't be saved as has been demonstrated by a very sensitive urban renewal project in Bristol but the councillors here are in the pockets of property developers and so they aren't interested. Belfast is dying on its arse really, all in the name of pointless "progress". Sickens me to the core. Keresaspa (talk) 17:58, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Speaking of Sailortown, I saw some photos of Ship Street houses before they were obliterated forever. What a tragedy. Can't people do anything about it? Had they preserved areas like Sailortown, the Shankill, Britannic Street, Rowland Street, Bedford Terrace, Pound Loney, etc. think how many tourists, artists, and filmmakers would be drawn to Belfast? Had they redone all those old city centre Victorian buildings into flats, Belfast would be one of the most desirable Irish/UK cities to live in. How lovely to live in a renovated Athletic Club in the heart of the city! People are so damned stupid, it sickens me. Did you know Lenny Murphy's dad was a docker from Sailortown?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:07, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Northern Ireland is now governed by effectively a coalition of five parties all pulling in the same direction and people here won't vote anybody else so nothing will happen. For my part I always vote for a sixth option when available but I'm in a tiny minority there. We hosted the Europe Music Awards recently and as far as the council is concerned that is proof enough that their cultural terrorism and destruction of architectural heritage is justified. Yes, Selena Gomez and some plastic-faced prostitute from Jersey bloody Shore turning up for a day is more than worth the soul of a city. The city centre itself is increasingly going under in terms of being a shopping area as they seem determined to turn it into a Belfast version of Canary Wharf, stuffing it with offices and swanky flats. Except there's no work here so all the buildings are lying empty and instead of their push for gentrification there is dereliction. Meanwhile the working classes are increasingly being pushed out to external dumps like Ballysillan and Poleglass with more convenient housing being destroyed and its replacements being given into private hands, either as yuppy apartments or sold off to rip-off landlords. The place is also a traffic nightmare and yet the bus services keep being cut as the execrable Translink answers to nobody but itself. Sometimes I wonder how much longer it can continue but as long as people keep voting on bigoted lines and keep getting force-fed a diet of "things are great without the Troubles" I can't see anything changing. I don't mean to sound so pessimistic but I am to be honest! Keresaspa (talk) 18:35, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Sailortown

Well I did it it. This sadly-destroyed place Sailortown, Belfast deserved its own article and now it has one. Please feel free to add anything to it as it needs more prose.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 09:52, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

I'll see if I can add anything later. I must admit I don't know very much about the area off-hand (no family connections that I know of) but I'll see what I can dig up. What's the Sailortown Local History reference you've used, is it a website or something? Keresaspa (talk) 19:06, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

WOW! The image of Sinclair Seamen's looks fantastic! I love that Edinburgh-like brooding quality it has. Your edits have really spiced up the page. I had forgotten about Rinty Monaghan having been from the area. What did you think of the pathetic remnants of that wonderful place? Oh, why did they destroy it all?! I need to ask you something. In your book on the UDA does it mention the Benny's Bar bombing? I remember when that happened. It got publicity in the States where I was living at the time. The two little girls outside playing when they were killed by a huge car bomb on the corner. I had read somewhere that the driver of the car bomb had got directions to the pub off the girls just five minutes before it exploded and that he had given them 2 pence. Is this true? If so, how diabolical and it's sickening how so many paramiltary attacks in the North have happened on Halloween like this one and Greysteel.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:03, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

The picture was entirely by accident. I had a bit of a hectic day involving things to be done on the Falls and Antrim Roads and I was running late so by the time I got to Sinclair the dusk had come. I had considered abandoning the picture taking because of the lack of light but it ended up turning out well. By the way you wrote that there are about three old houses left in Sailortown. You don't know where exactly do you? There is a row in (what's left of) Garmoyle Street that looks likely but I'm not sure personally. My late uncle was a decent amateur boxer who knew some of the pros and he was acquainted with Rinty Monaghan. Rinty was a generation older than my uncle but they were both small, light and wiry and I think my uncle tried to pattern himself on Rinty a bit. He got fleeced by his manager and ended up in poverty did poor old Rinty. Surprisingly enough I'm seeing nothing about Benny's Bar in the UDA book. Unusual as even when I was young I recall it being mentioned with particular bitterness and the 2p story told. Like you say if that is true then it is horrific. Oh the comments you made below - you're a fine woman and I'm pleased to work with you :) Keresaspa (talk) 18:52, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

I'm pleased to work with you as well, Keresaspa. You are a true gentleman which is rare to come across these days, especially at Wikipedia! Regarding the three original houses left in Sailortown, those three on Garmoyle, as you suggested appear to be the ones. From what I can see on the Google Map, they are beside McMahon's Bar, which sits on the corner of Garmoyle and Dock Street. Ship Street (where Benny's Bar stood) is nothing but a power plant and an industrial wasteland. Oh, why did they build that motorway there? As for Whitla Street, it has changed completely. Now we know how Lenny Murphy ended up with a Catholic name. It would have been highly unlikely for someone named Murphy to have settled in the Shankill back in the 19th or early 20th century. According to Dillon, Lenny's grandfather William Murphy was a Protestant. I would opine that this William's dad (Lenny's great-grandfather), had been a Catholic docker who married a Protestant girl from the area,and raised the kids as Protestants. Seeing as both communities lived and worked together, it makes sense. Another thing, many of the Catholics of Sailortown had come from other parts of Ireland after the famine. Murphy is not indigenous to Ulster, although it was very common in Sailortown. I believe it's a Leinster name. What's strange is that there was relatively little intermarriage between the foreign sailors (who came mainly from nations on the Baltic Sea) and the locals. Most dockland communities were settled by foreign seamen who then took local wives such as Cardiff's Tiger Bay. Sailortown was the opposite, preferring to marry among themselves. Looking at all the clips and photos, the Sailortown locals all looked like typical Belfasters. Even the Murphys didn't like Lenny's dad to marry Joyce Thompson from the Shankill.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:31, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, that's the houses I was thinking of. There's one that looks like an imitation but then there are three beside it that look pretty authentic. I think one of them is an office now, not sure about the other two. Whitla (and the rest of the area come to think of it) even looks very different from my days as a kid. There was an old fire station facade there and a big wall that housed a Renault depot down that way but all that has gone now. The motorway takes a lot of traffic of the Shore Road which in fairness was a bit of a death trap in parts but it has gone the other way now as parts of the Shore Road have become an absolute ghost town. Personally though it's one of my preferred roads in Belfast for walking, most probably because the run to Newtownabbey is straight and is about as far as I can walk and back without wrecking myself. There was a family of pub owners in Sailortown called the Murrays and they used to live opposite me. The old guy would have had some stories about Sailortown but unfortunately he died about ten years ago. They were a real old Sailortown family so he might well have known Lenny Murphy's people and did know Buck Alec. That district rivalry thing still turns up in Belfast to an extent. Shankill Roaders and loyalists from East Belfast will banter each other about their areas and the branch of my family from the Markets always had a thing about hating the Falls Road. Normally it is just banter but with enough booze it can turn ugly and I remember having to break up a guy from the lower Ormeau and a guy from the Whitewell Road one night after the jokes about each other's area got nasty. It's daft when you think about it but Belfast people are just very territorial. Keresaspa (talk) 02:35, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

That could be how a lot of the UDA/UVF and OIRA/PIRA feuds got started. There was probably rivalry between the Upper, Middle and Lower Shankill! I don't know why they knocked down the Whitla Street fire station as it was a Sailortown landmark and didn't interfere with the motorway.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:55, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

On the Shankill there was always the thing that the ones from up the road looked down on the people in the lower Shankill both literally and figuratively because it was felt that the lower Shankill people were less refined than those from up the road. Same with the upper and lower Falls come to think of it as well as the west and east sides of the Markets and probably other places too. I know that on the Shankill and the in the Market the supposed lower order were often termed "Apaches" by the self-claimed posher set. Given that they were all social housing inhabited by working class people it seems silly but it always there and still is to an extent. Parts of the Whitla Street fire station are probably still from the original but the main frontage is gone. Belfast City Council and its demolition squad again! Keresaspa (talk) 15:59, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Shankill Road bombing

There was no bad faith here. I have never seen your name before, either on this article, or any other, and know nothing of your edit history. Unexplained deletions are reverted by most editors as a matter of course. In this case, I did not mark it as vandalism or give you a warning, I merely reversed an unexplained deletion. Cheers! ---RepublicanJacobite_TheFortyFive 04:38, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

I've only been here over seven years and made 12000 edits. Keresaspa (talk) 17:57, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Also I didn't delete anything, I took out wrong information and replaced it with correct information rather than simply removing something. It was an edit. Keresaspa (talk) 20:05, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

You are also one of the most prolific editors on Troubles-related articles, not to mention all the images you have uploaded to the project! In fact, you are to be commended for replacing incorrect information rather than leave it there. A quick look at your user page explains that you are a Northern Ireland-based editor, therefore articles relating to the place and its history would be obviously within your realm of expertise. People need to be less trigger-happy around here.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:55, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

York Road Railway station

Keresaspa, where was the old York Road Railway station in relation to Sailortown?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 11:10, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Just past it or just on the edge, depending on where you put the edge of Sailortown. My own opinion is that York Street-York Road (which, along with the Shore Road, are all continuous and lead from the city centre to Newtownabbey) was just past the border of Sailortown and was more like a no man's land between Sailortown on the one side and New Lodge and Tiger's Bay on the other. Don't quote me on that as a Sailortown veteran might argue I'm talking rubbish and say the station was within the area and unquestionably it was very very close. If you're thinking about linking it to the Sailortown article I would see no reason not to mention something about the station being within the proximity of Sailortown because we're talking the distance from Sandy Row to Shaftesbury Square really. That's another unrecognisable area these days even from my youth, although to be fair there are a couple of old factories at the base of the Shore Road that have been kept and renovated, which makes a nice change. Keresaspa (talk) 02:43, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

I wrote that Sailortown was adjacent to the York Road railway station. Does that sound OK? It seems from lookin at old maps that the station bordered Whitla Street. I recall that area from Sandy Row to Shaftesbury Square had changed drastically from the time I stayed there in 1981 to 1986 when I got lost as most of the familiar landmarks had disappeared. Have you seen some of the YouTube clips of Sailortown? Very touching and sad.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:49, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Sounds about right to me. With these old districts it is sometimes difficult to say where an exact border was as they generally unofficial and even now you can have competing definitions (I for one consider the "Greater Shankill" to be the Shankill Road, Woodvale, Glencairn and Highfield but some try to include Ballysillan even though there is no direct access and about two miles, and Ardoyne, between them) but by an stretch Sailortown was at least convenient to York Road station so a mention is merited. Seen the YouTube clips. For me I reckon the end of Sailortown wasn't just the end of a district but the end of a way of life. Not long after it the old Smithfield Market went too and effectively those two things meant the death of old Belfast. Keresaspa (talk) 16:05, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

There was no need to wipe out all of Sailortown. The motorway could have been constructed around it, and the houses refurbished, leaving Whitla Street and Gramoyle Street and the terraced streets leading to the docks untouched. Dockside areas fascinate me. I had a friend who lived in Dublin's docklands. I used to enjoy walking through the neighbourhood to get to his house (an 1890s two-up-two-down). That video by James Gourley made me cry. His home was right near the docks - Andrew Sreet. It appears he knew Buck Alec Robinson. I really love those old cobbled cul-de-sacs and the trams passing under the railway bridge. Like you say, a way of life was destroyed forever.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:39, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Dublin docks has had the arse ripped out of it too. It was one of the vanity projects that had a bunch of borrowed money chucked at during the Celtic Tiger days and is now costing the southern taxpayers an absolute fortune. Like Belfast it has empty lots on which bits of building have been started but which have had to be abandoned because of no money. Indeed parts of Sailortown could have been saved but the council doesn't want scum near the city centre so they had to gentrify it with a bunch of pointless office blocks, half of which are empty. No room for any of the old ways in ultra-modern cosmopolitan Belfast alas. Keresaspa (talk) 17:37, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Who are the new gentry that are supposed to inhabit this so-called gentrification of old neighbourhoods? Oh, take a look at the Sailortown article. I added a bit of info plus a photo of Sailortown after the planners raped the hell out of her.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:13, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

God knows who the gentry are. The boys on the council with their three or four wage packets all seem to assume that everybody in Belfast is rich because they are but this has always been a skint town and always will be. They look at horror shows like Canary Wharf and assume that Belfast can be like that but they forget Belfast is about one twentieth the size of London and there are plenty of areas in London (Peckham, Hackney, Balham) that are slums. Short Street is finished now. The houses they have built are at least small and useful, not like the rubbish they have thrown up round my way. The Ormeau Bakery and the old Curzon cinema were both made into the infamous luxury apartments and what happened? No sod could afford them so they had to hand them over to the Housing Executive. Farce. Meanwhile I've been doing some editing of my own over on Donegall Road after being inspired by your rescue job on Sandy Row. Keresaspa (talk) 18:48, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Actually, the areas around Short Street and Pilot Street look more recognisable than Garmoyle and Ship Street. I don't understand why they could not have left the old Whitla Street fire staion as it was. The new one opened in 1973. I have a few ideas for articles. The 1907 Belfast dock strike would make an interesting artilce. As would the 1976 Chlorane Bar attack and the 1974 Rose and Crown bombing. I had a friend from Ormeau Road (she'd be around 50 now) whose dad was injured in the latter bombing- he lost his heel.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 10:02, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

His name wasn't Frank by any chance? Keresaspa (talk) 17:37, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

I don't know his first name but his surname was Crawford. My friend's name was Mairead Crawford and her boyfriend, Sean (another good friend of mine) came from The Markets. She was small, thin, pretty with flaming red hair. I recall her talking about a brother Billy and a sister Sophia; however, she had other siblings. Do you know the family? They lived in the Ormeau Road. Oh I just started the article: 1907 Belfast Dock strike. What do you think of it so far? I must admit that I know absolutely nil about trade unionism!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:50, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

Met them once or twice...or several hundred times. They're my cousins and Mairead is my godmother! Talk about a small world! Mairead and Sean married years back and have grown-up children now. They still live on the Ormeau. I'll have look at the new article. There was a mural about it on Northumberland Street off the lower Falls but it has gone now. Keresaspa (talk) 18:00, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

I don't believe it! I am shocked. You are related to Sean and Mairead!!!! We lived together in the same house in Dublin's Kimmage Road. The house was converted into bedsits. We were very close. Sean used to always beat me at poker and other card games. This is so incredible as I lost contact with them when my boyfriend and I moved to Dublin's Northside. Next time you see them ask them if they remember a tall, skinny American girl with black hair named Jenny Griffin who lived with a Dubliner named Anthony in the same house on Dublin's Kimmage Road in 1982. I'm so happy they married and had kids. Please give them my regards.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:16, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

They're grandparents now in fact as I think all three of their kids are now parents. I'll certainly pass on your regards next time I run into them. Small world indeed. Keresaspa (talk) 18:21, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

I'm still amazed. I'm also very pleased that they are both well. I shall inform my ex boyfriend (who is also my ex-husband) of their well-being. Over the years he often wondered about Sean and Mairead. We were both annoyed with ourselves at having lost contact with them. I believe the last time I saw them was in 1983. I remember them vistiting me in hospital in May 1983 when my first son was born. I saw them a few times after that.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 09:45, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

They probably would have come back to Belfast not too long after that as I remember them coming over to my mum's house around 1986/7 when their oldest daughter was learning to walk. I was just a kid of about seven myself back then. Seems like another life now really. Keresaspa (talk) 18:37, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Thank you

for your splendid work on the 1907 Belfast Dock strike artilce. It looks really good now.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 09:45, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Not at all, I enjoyed that one immensely actually, even if it did verge dangerously close towards opinion in a couple of my additions, something I always try to avoid. Keresaspa (talk) 18:39, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

I know absolutely nothing about trade unions, strikes, blacklegs, etc, so it was a real learning experience for me. Have you seen the latest images I uploaded to the article? I really like that one of the RIC escorting the convoy of traction engines. I wonder where exactly it was taken?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:52, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Bit of a hobby of mine on the sly. That is a good image of the engines. As I think I mentioned about the Shankill video my eyes aren't great but, and correct me if I'm wrong as I might well be, that hotel in the background seems to be called Metropole. If that's the case I'm told that the Metropole was on the corner of York Street and Donegall Street on the edge of the city centre so that picture would be one of those two or Royal Avenue. There are a few buildings that look like the ones in the picture there now so I wouldn't be surprised. The Metropole though is long gone, possibly as early as the 1930s. Keresaspa (talk) 19:10, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Speaking of demolished buildings, I saw a picture of Gallaher's Tobacco factory then read it was knocked down in 2003! If only I had gone to take a look at it last time I was in Belfast 10 years ago! An interesting what if?: What if the police had succeeding in carrying ou a strike? What do you think would have happened? Would history have altered?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 19:25, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Gallaher's went with a whimper really. It was one of those buildings that could have been saved an reused but the council had grand plans to kill that area so it had to die. The tobacco factory at the end of Sandy Row survived and is now used for a completely different purpose but for some reason they were hell-bent on just levelling York Street (apart from a couple of old buildings that survive on back streets). Mind you I wont be surprised if the Sandy Row one is destroyed too as the militant anti-smoking lobby dominates Northern Irish politics (and Britain too come to think of it) and they are getting all annoyed about anything they perceive as "glorifying" smoking. Carmel Hanna made some stupid speech about Belfast's role in the tobacco trade being as bad as the role of their cities in the slave trade and that sort of nannying attitude now dominates and, I fear, will provide another ready-made excuse for more demolition. Personally I'm an ex-smoker but I think all this suppression of smoking in art, film, history etc is cultural terrorism. On the other point police strikes are rare but not unheard of. Britain had a couple around the end of World War One both of which proved very successful for the cops as they got pay rises and de facto unionisation out of them, in the first instance after only a day. No police means nobody to enforce the government's order so more than likely bringing out the army but using the military against civilians opens a can of worms and had the police joined the Dock strike and the government brought out the army things might have got really ugly. There again I suspect that had the police come out the bosses would have been made to give concessions to avoid all that. Either way things would certainly have been different either long term (assuming quick capitulation to strikers demands) or long term (assuming the military option). Keresaspa (talk) 20:01, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

A pity they tore down Gallaher's as it had so much significance regarding the Dock strike. That photo appears to have been taken in Royal Avenue. The history of Northern Ireland could have been a lot different had the RIC carried out their planned strike. Especially had the British military been used against them and the civilian population. Oh the article was just rated B Class. Thanks to your help! How close is the Custom House to the docks?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:56, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Had the British Army been used against civilians it could have been curtains for the Protestant ascendancy-Protestant working class alliance, which would have left unionism in the north in the same position it was in the south, i.e. something only the very rich cared about. In turn the Third Home Rule Bill would have passed without a whimper and a united home rule Ireland might have drifted gently towards independence in the manner of Australia and Canada with the Troubles never happening. Or there again it might have just delayed things a bit until Carson and Craig got the masses back on side who knows. Custom House is right beside the river very near the Albert Clock. The docks area is slightly further up north although in Belfast's heyday they would have been much bigger so back in the days of the strike very close. And B class - nice. We got that up to scratch in a hurry dint we :) Keresaspa (talk) 21:18, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

I like the way you rearranged the images; much more attractive. Oh did you know Buck Alec Robinson would take his pet lion for walks through Sailortown? Would you happen to know where Back Ship Street was?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 14:22, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Oh aye knew that about Buck Alec. Never heard the end of that when I was a kid to be honest. Of course my lot originating in the Market means that in all the stories Buck Alec was a total wimp compared to Silver McKee. No doubt if you grew up on the Shankill they would say the same except it would be Stormy Weatherill who was tougher than Mike Tyson, Muhammad Ali and Randy Couture combined. I take it all with a pinch of salt about all of them personally - I don't doubt they were hard men but by the same token if anybody had strutted about like that in the 70s or 80s they would have been filled full of lead pretty quickly. Buck's lion had no teeth anyway! Back Ship Street was between York Street and Nelson Street, all three of which were parallel to Garmoyle Street. Long gone now. In and around where the railway lines run along the coast to Larne Harbour these days. Keresaspa (talk) 18:38, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

I had a look on Google today. That motorway is so disconcerting. It's really hard to figure out where those streets of houses and businesses were. I don't know why they replaced the Whitla Street statiion with that eyesore now. Is it in the same location? It appears to be. Why are Marine and Ship streets so short now? Probably the M2 cuts through them as well. The buildings on Roayl Avenue, Donegall Place and Chichester Street all look the same as I remeber them I saw an old photo of the Grand Central Hotel. Whwn was that torn down?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 19:15, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Whitla Station that I remember was more or less in the same location. I seem to recall the old fashioned entrance was on the side of the building but don't quote me as I was very young. The shortened streets are due to the Motorway - Ship Street used to go all the way to York Street with Marine Street going to Back Ship Street. You can't even get down what's left of Ship Street now as there is a factory in the way. Chichester Street down near the Law Courts looks totally different now with that bloody Victoria Square eyesore. If people could afford to shop in House of Fraser they wouldn't live in Belfast! Other than that its mostly OK. Grand Central Hotel, Belfast is on here - God but that photo is just my childhood encapsulated. Keresaspa (talk) 02:53, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Has the entire hotel been torn down? I recall seeing it in 1981, but don't remember if it was there on my later visits to Belfast in 1986. I hate modern shopping centres. I like traditional city centre shops. The 1907 dock strike article is getting a lot of hits. In the first 2 days of December about 800 people had accessed it.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:23, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

In that picture the building to the left of "Mark Anthony" is still standing, the whole Mark Anthony block is gone, "Avenue" is gone and everything after that is still standing. I totally disagree with image description on that picture that the old buildings were "eyesores". Like the glass and chrome horror that is Castle Court is somehow aesthetically pleasing?! And Upper Royal Avenue is still pretty "grim" whilst I invite the photographer to hang about any part of it after nine o'clock and see how long he or she avoids getting hassle from the spide gangs that sit about with bottles of cider! Was the Dock strike article on did you know? If not wow! Keresaspa (talk) 20:22, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

The fact that somebody considered that elegant old building laden with history an "eyesore" shows the mindset of those who advocate demolition in the first place! Glass and chrome just do not fit in with the Victorian ambience of central Belfast. It is not Sydney or Tokyo. People come to Belfast to see and admire the old edifices that represent its former stature as an industrial Victorian/Edwardian powerhouse, not shopping malls, apartment buildings, multi-level carparks! No I did not nominate the Dock strike article for a DYK. I don't venture about that scene anymore. Don't like the crowd that hang out there. In December alone its got over 1100 hits! If you come across anything else to add go ahead. The more prose the merrier! Oh speaking of demolition, I just discovered that Sam Kelly's coal premises near Queen's Quay have been knocked down and replaced with concrete wasteland. I have also been perusing old Belfast censuses, and have come to my own conclusion how Lenny Murphy acquired his Catholic surname. In an old 1901 census of Sailortown, it showed quite a few young Protestant women living as boarders in Catholic homes. It appears most of the boarding houses were run by Catholic families. I would opine that the girls were mill workers who found it economically convenient to rent rooms in respectable homes near the York Street and Jennymount mills rather than pay out tram fare everyday. It's possible a Protestant girl ended up in a house owned by the Murphy family and married the son. I also noted that in virtually all the mixed Catholic-Protestant marriages (there were quite a few), the children were raised in the religion of the mothers. This also applied to Church of Ireland/Presbyterian marriages. Another thing have you noticed the big bosses involved in the strike; Thomas Gallaher, Samuel Kelly, Thomas Keaveney, all had traditionally Catholic surnames.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 09:28, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

I couldn't believe that description when I read it. The guy (or girl) who took the picture clearly has a good eye so the fact that they would consider grand old buildings an eyesore shocked me. Sure, some council moron who doesn't know one end of a camera from another but proper Belfast is a dream for a photographer of buildings. I don't bother with DYK myself - a few too many of the uptight little Hitlers that blight Wikipedia hang over there. Village Pump and Categories and Redirects for discussion attract that crowd too, the sort who never contribute to articles but instead immerse themselves in the nerdy gerbil rubbish of those sort of technical projects. Best to leave them to it usually. Queen's Quay (and that entire east bank of the Lagan) is in the process of being ripped apart to build a bunch of vanity projects for the hundredth anniversary of the Titanic. It is totally unrecognisable other there now even for me and I live here. Is it just me or is there something ironic about such a failure of a council deciding that Belfast should be pushed to a worldwide audience based on one ship that was itself a huge failure? Dillon suggests a link to Catholic Murphys from Sailortown in the Trigger Men but he doesn't elaborate. Your version sounds plausible to me. I personally know a few people who had Protestant mothers but were raised Catholic (my granddad for one, although admittedly my great grandmother came from a Presbyterian family of the Wolfe Tone rather than the Hugh Hanna tradition) but for the most part it did tend to be the other way. Keresaspa (talk) 20:22, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

That photo of the houses on Garmoyle Street is fabulous and fits in perefectly on the Sailortown article. Thanks a million. Regarding Lenny Murphy, I located the Fleet Street Murphys (Lenny's people) on the 1901 census and they are listed as Protestant, so the Catholic connection goes back further. It is a fact though that there were many Protestant lodgers in Catholic homes. All the boarding houses in Sailortown were Catholic owned. If they want to recreate A Titanic-era amosphere in Belfast, would it not make better sense to eave the few remaining structures which actually date from that time period rather than demolish everything and recreate bland 21st century monstrosities?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:00, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Keeping the old buildings and making the area of piece of "living history" would be far too sensible fro the destroyers on the Council. I don't doubt that the attractions will bring in visitors next year but once the anniversary is over it will be yet another dull, pointless area of empty buildings. Still either way the councillors get their kickbacks so it's no skin off their noses. Keresaspa (talk) 17:31, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

I just had a look at a couple of old clips of Belfast on YouTube. One taken from a tram shows Royal Avenue in 1901! Imagine that world suddenly unfolding before your eyes, but in living breathing colour instead of black and white! The other was filmed in 1963. It shows footage of Smithfield Market,Carrick Hill, the Docks and Sailortown's waterfront. Also images of the Newtownards Road. Oh, where was Cuba Street?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:40, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Carrick Hill eh? There was a time when it was a byword for everything low-rent and tawdry in Belfast. Make a mess of the living room with your toys and your ma would say "it's like Carrick Hill in here". I was round that way recently and even it has been rebuilt now, to the point where that expression would have to be shelved. Cuba Street was in the BT4 postcode and the Victoria Ward so east Belfast, somewhere between Newtownards Road and Knock. These days there's a Cuba Walk just off the lower Newtownards Road near your old stamping ground of Island Street so it was probably round there but it's not one I'm personally familiar with. Keresaspa (talk) 18:25, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Have you seen that [YouTube clip of Belfast's Royal Avenue taken in 1901] from a horse-drawn tram? It's so realistic, I feel as if I'm actually a part of that scene. Yet, for some inexplicable reason, I feel frightened when I watch it. Perhaps it's the eerie music or the fact that the people are doing such normal things, seem so alive yet everyone in it is long dead. It's like observing a city populated by ghosts.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:22, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

There was a series about those on the BBC a year or two ago. Fascinating stuff but I agree slightly eerie too for some reason. It almost seems like another world. Keresaspa (talk) 00:54, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

It actually was another world...long gone forever. Like the people in it. What's also eerie is that the photographer seemed to be sending out a message to the future. Just think, the existance of those people were immortalised for brief seconds. We now know that they lived and breathed and carried out their own business just like we do today. I am strangely drawn to the young women at the beginning of the clip-one is pushing a bicycle. That tram driver at the end who stares straight into the camera is also compelling. Did you notice the RIC man directing traffic and the woman wearing the shawl? This is priceless material.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 05:35, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

I imagine some of them were probably a bit scared by the camera given how new it was. But definitely an important historical document right there. Keresaspa (talk) 18:45, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Ali Mauclen

OK, fair enough, mate. --MIR17 (talk) 17:17, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Good man :) Keresaspa (talk) 02:40, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Garmoyle Street houses

I really like that photo you took. The sunlight gives it an ephemeral, spectre-like quality as if the houses were just a mirage. Class job!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:06, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Thanks very much. Once you mentioned where they were I had to get the picture really. I notice one of them is bricked up so they might not be around for much longer. Keresaspa (talk) 19:49, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Oh, I hope they're not torn down. Just as well the developers don't operate in Italy. By this stage the Forum would be a shopping complex, the Colisseum an apartment building and Venice paved over as a motorway!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:18, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

It doesn't bear thinking about what those idiots would do in that situation - the Leaning Tower of Pisa would probably be conveniently burnt down after failed attempts to get a demolition order on health and safety grounds! Keresaspa (talk) 00:56, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

All listed buildings need to be guarded aroound the clock. All that work put into those beautiful buildings....just to be reduced to rubble to fatten wallets. What a world!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 14:49, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

I couldn't agree more. What has happened to this city in the name of "regeneration" is a travesty. Keresaspa (talk) 18:46, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Would you happen to know where exactly on Royal Avenue that 1901 tram scene was filmed?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 19:34, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

The bit near the end where there is a huge stone plinth in the background is High Street as that is definitely the Albert Memorial Clock, Belfast, one of the few things left standing. Other than I haven't a clue as none of it looked anything like that during my lifetime. Keresaspa (talk) 19:45, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

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