Ivain

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CC and RCC and Catholics in Mainland China

Vidi tuum nomem esse scriptum in latina lingua, quod clarissimum est! "Idem velle atque idem nolle" verba enim bona.

I think we really should include something about the sufferings of the faithful in China and the attempts by the government there to seize control of the Church and subvert her for the government's own purposes. But I am not knowledgeable on the matter myself, so I would simply be a supporter, but not a contributor, on such a matter. SVV, Lostcaesar 23:07, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

No, it's not

Read the anonymous user's post again, please. The post claims that it is NOT called penance, only Confession, and implies that the sacrament occurs when the person confesses. This is manifestly untrue.

For instance, if a Catholic is walking across the street and is hit by a bus, and a priest wanders by, he may come running over and give the now unconscious person conditional absolution -- i.e., the sacrament of penance, without any actual confession, forgiving sins on the presumption that the person was in a habitual state of repentance for their sins.

Sacraments require matter and form. The matter in this case are the actual sins of the person -- not the confessed sins, as ALL sins, remembered or not, are forgiven. The form are the words of absolution uttered by the priest.

In your own citation (and please, providing extensive quotes from the CCC to me, as though I were some first-grader, is a waste of time) makes this clear: the section title in the official English version is "The Sacrament of Penance and Reconciliation," and when called this throughout the CCC, Penance and Reconciliation are capitalized; "confession," "conversion," and "forgiveness" are all left in lower case, making it clear that penance and reconciliation is the "name" of the sacrament," while these others are merely descriptive referneces.

That Catholics are in the habit of calling it by the name Confession does not make that theologically correct (by the way, again, thanks for letting me in on this fact -- as if I have come from another planet; I guess having grown up as a Catholic in the U.S. and earned a couple of graduate degrees in these subjects does not, in your eyes, make me sufficiently expert in Catholic practice that you need not explain to me these things!), and the anonynmous editor was NOT suggesting that the netry read something like, "the sacrament of Penance, also called Confession). The anonymous writer was shrilly commanding that the netry be changed as "there is not sacraent of Penance in the RCC." HarvardOxon 23:58, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Re: no it's not

I beg your pardon. I write with simplicity, citing only basic texts, not because I believe you to be a beginner, but because I am one; this is all that I am capable of.

Certainly no offense was intended.

May the Lord bless you and keep you always. Good-bye.

Ivain 08:58, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Its the Catholicity of the Church that is important not "Romaness"

I hear your point regarding the Church in China. However, to make it a point of a Chinese Church vs a "Roman" one is irrelevant. The point is that the Church is simply Universal. I'm sure there are Eastern Catholics in China which are NOT Roman Catholic, they are Catholics that follow the Petrine Minister of the Church whether he stays in Rome or moves to Katmandu. The point is not Rome, Katmandu or Beijing. The Church is universal as Christ is part of the one Universal God, though he lived his life strictly in the Holy Land thoughout his time on earth. Would you call Christ, the second person of the Trinity, the "One Holy Hebrew Universal God"? No that is silly. Then we should never consider the global Church the "Roman" Catholic Church.

Jesus chose Peter's office as the earthly shepardship not relative to any particular geographic location. That historically Peter ended his earthly shepardship as the bishop of Rome is a mere fact. Aside for the fact that he is the local bishop of Rome, theologically this fact has no more relevance than the Archbishop of Dever has. Papal infalability, takes affect only when the Pope addresses the entire Global community. Thus when he sits, merely as the bishop of the diocese of Rome, he does not function as the leader to the world, as Pope. In fact, the Pope has no infalability when he speaks merely as bishop of the diocese of Rome. Thus, why focus on the Roman-ness.

I realize this concept can easily lead to confusion by the fact that the same person is filling two separate offices. It is sort of like saying the President of the US is also the Mayor of Washington, DC. But the point is not Washington, DC or in this case Rome. Its the global office of Peter relevant to the "Catholic"/Universal Church not simply a local Roman church.

Thus say it the way it is. Chinese brethren should point out their Catholicity with regard to the Universal church and its union with the Petrine Minister, the Pope, the leader of the Global Church.Micael 08:39, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Regarding your essay on my talk page [[1]] ,

Just remember to say they are faithful to Rome...does not truly represent what is occuring. Even such a comment, adds fire to the divinely unfaithful(atheist/communist). Why, because such earthy souls misunderstand "ROME" as just a worldly state. What is truly representative is a faithfulness to Peter or the Petrine Minister. An office instituted by Christ, the Divine; an earthly office founded by the heavenly. Thus, faithfulness to Christ through his earthly Prime Minister.

To merely focus on the geographic capitol of the Universal Church, instead of the individual, the Petrine Minister, essentially minimizes the true meaning. It is the equivalent of referring to your belief as a faithfulness to the Israeli God-Man. The moment you place a specific geographic description to that which is Universal and Spritual you minimize the very meaning of the office, particularly for those that merely think of everything by such earthly definitions. Catholics have got to get rid of their near-sighted view of the meaning of "Rome", particularly as it relates to others.Micael (talk) 10:17, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Re

Hi,

Thank you for your kind message. Unfortunately, I am not entirely sure which particular case you are referring to: would this be No Gun Ri (*shivers inside*) or some other article? I really ought to stay off ANI for my own good. Good to hear about your family's service -- one of my ancestors was a medic at Utah Beach. In any event, nice to hear from you.

Best,

GAB^Hello! 17:59, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

Ah, yes. Wading through all the mobile edits, I mix up my vandals. Cheers! GAB^Hello! 21:14, 18 August 2015 (UTC)