User talk:HighKing/Archives/2010/December

BISE fatigue

I'm sorta wore out from 'British Isles' disputes. I can't even keep up with the review I've started. I'll leave BISE's fate in your (plural) hands. GoodDay (talk) 23:50, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Kinda wore out myself. All this chopping and changing from one way of doing things to another, admins dropping off and losing interest in policing the thing, no real appetite to prevent the disruption, etc. Right now, I'm completely demotivated to doing anything in that area. The brutal truth is that the entire topic is seen as childish/irrelevant//without merit/nationalistic/whatever. And maybe it can be all of those things at times. Not healthy in any case. But, hey, thanks for all the insights and comments along the way! --HighKing (talk) 00:19, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

No probs. GoodDay (talk) 00:30, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Your use of 'rvv' in edit summaries

I recently blocked an anon edit-warring about Ireland terminology. I noticed that while reverting his edits you used "rvv" in your summaries. This means "revert vandalism", and what you were reverting was definitely not vandalism. I don't want to see this again, as it constitutes disruptive and tendentious editing. All the best, Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 18:38, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

You're right. I'm happy to revert my reverts and re-revert using a more correct edit summary to be fair. It's probably not a good idea to leave the summaries as rvv's... --HighKing (talk) 18:46, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

All corrected. Should have given my edit summary more thought but I was treating the wikistalking of O Fenian as vandalism rather than a content dispute. --HighKing (talk) 19:00, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

British bio infoboxes

Howdy HK, could you show me an example of your -PoB, citzenship, nationality- proposal? GoodDay (talk) 16:28, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Hey GD, hope you had a good Christmas. Best wishes for 2011. The infobox suggestions I'm making already exist. That is, there is already a "birth place", "nationality" and "citizenship" field. All that's missing is a "citizen of" field. For example, here's what the personal data for Mary McAleese might look like...

Mary McAleese
Born	(1951-06-27) 27 June 1951 Belfast, Northern Ireland
Nationality (legal)	Irish
Citizenship	Irish
Spouse	Martin McAleese (1976–present)
Children	3

I believe it would help to kill off arguments where people try to only include one aspect of a person's identity based on only a single attribute, such as where they were born, or the nationality of their parents. --HighKing (talk) 17:30, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

Alternatively, some more mischievous editors could add British to both the nationality and citizenship fields, should they so choose. Daicaregos (talk) 20:24, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

Hi Dai! Festive greetings to you and best wishes for 2011. This discussion is a follow-on from something we were talking about on GoodDay's page. In a nutshell, I was trying to explain that there are multiple aspects to a person's identity that are sometimes misunderstood, or misinterpreted. For most people, Birth Place, Nationality, and Citizenship are the same. Most arguments surround those where there are different values for these attributes. Your point about adding British to both the nationality and citizenship fields of the Mary McAleese infobox, above, is a valid point, and I confess I don't know the answers to whether those additions would be correct or not. It is possible to be a citizen of multiple countries, concurrently, and is it possible to identify with more than one nationality. In Mary's case (and without any evidence) I doubt if she is a British citizen - and by that, I mean that she holds a British passport. Equally, and without evidence, I doubt she identifies as belonging to the British nation. --HighKing (talk) 21:29, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

Dai's peeved at me, again. GoodDay (talk) 21:40, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

Hiya HK, how's it hanging? Hope the holidays are going well for you. Countdown's on to 2011 now. The premise that Birth Place, Nationality, and Citizenship are the same, doesn't hold for the UK, as you see from your Mary McAleese example. It would only be true if England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales are excluded. Nor do you stop being a British citizen when your passport expires. I think it is highly likely that if this proposal were to be accepted, bios like Mary McAleese's would be altered to show British in both the nationality and citizenship fields. GoodDay, Mary McAleese was born in Northern Ireland, as you know. Do you believe her infobox should show British in both the nationality and citizenship fields? Daicaregos (talk) 22:10, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

I don't mess around with those sections of the infoboxes. FWIW, McAleese was born British & is now Irish, thus she's British-Irish. Anyways, in Canadian & American bio infoboxes, provinces, territories & states are used, thus I've no probs with usage of constituent countries in the British related articles. GoodDay (talk) 22:32, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

Whatever her citizenship(s) are, use them. Whatever her nationality is, use it. GoodDay (talk) 22:34, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

Have you got a reference that says that MMcA was " ... born British"? or is that just a piece of original research? or, more likely, just some personal synthesis? Fmph (talk) 00:38, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Belfast, Northern Ireland is within the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. GoodDay (talk) 00:44, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

So? How does that correspond to " ... born British"? Have you a reliable source that uses that terminology? For you to decide that everyone ever born in Northern Irleand was " ... born British" is a piece of personal synthesis, unsupported by any reliable references. Fmph (talk) 00:51, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Holy smokers, I need a reference for that? British is the demonym used for describing people born in or residents of the UK. PS: Why do ya ask? I've no plans to make changes to the McAleese infobox. GoodDay (talk) 01:01, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Yes you do. It's no such thing. Well, let me retract that. It may be such a thing , in your opinion, but it's not in mine. When we have a difference of opinion on WP, we solve it by providing reliable sources. For me the term 'British' describes those who are nationals of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and it's dependencies. Bringing place of birth into only confuses matters for me. Either one is British, or one isn't. There are plenty of people born on British territory who were never British. If you want to argue otherwise, you need to be able to back it up with reliable sources. BTW, the reason I raise it is that it goes to the heart of many nationality/citizenship disputes. Fmph (talk) 01:19, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Since I've no intentions of fiddling around with those bio intros, I'm allowed to give my opinon (minus references), on an editors talkpage. GoodDay (talk) 01:30, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Of course you are, so long as we are clear that it is opinion, as opposed to reliably-sourced fact. Fmph (talk) 06:53, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Now ya know why I don't mess around with the intro of those bio articles. IMHO, the sources for them are in error, hehehe. GoodDay (talk) 17:29, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

(Responding to HK's 17:30 Dec 29th post) Santa Claus was good to me. I hope you've had a great Christmas, too. That infobox content is a great idea HK. I've no probs with it, at all. Have a great 2011. GoodDay (talk) 20:34, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

Ta GD. I'm still taking a break from here. Snowded mentioned he might draft a few things over Christmas relating to BISE and I'm not rushing him. My faith in "the community" properly and correctly dealing with disruption has taken a few blows to the head recently. Victory to the disruptors I'd say.... --HighKing (talk) 21:27, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

I still got British Isles on my watchlist. Now & then, 'drive by' IPs make changes to the intro & I've gotta revert them. It's a tough job, but I enjoy doing it. As for the BISE, I hope things will work out. GoodDay (talk) 21:36, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

Sorry for high-jacking your thread (but it is to do with the infobox) I would be grateful for comment at a discussion at my talkpage concerning the place of birth element of the infobox. Thanks in advance. Bjmullan (talk) 23:18, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

For people born in the UK (especially NI), I agree that using both nationality and citizenship fields "would help to kill off arguments where people try to only include one aspect of a person's identity". However I have some points to make:

• everyone born in the UK is not automatically British by nationality
• everyone born in NI who holds an Irish passport are Irish by nationality, Irish by citizenship and British by citizenship
• in the citizenship field the links should be [[British nationality law|British]] or [[Irish nationality law|Irish]]

~Asarlaí 20:33, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Thanks Asarlaí - I agree with your summary. I haven't thought through all the appropriate links and connotations - but some ground rules should be fairly easy to put together and get agreed. *If* it solves a problem. This idea appears to have gathered some life of its own - I can't recall ever being involved in any disagreements over infoboxes - so I don't know if this suggestion is really even required.... --HighKing (talk) 20:48, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

I don't think it's required. We already have this guidance: Wikipedia:Nationality of people from the United Kingdom, which is perfectly adequate.
Look forward to your return HK. Have a good New Year. Daicaregos (talk) 21:14, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Not sure if that helps solve the problem if people argue over "nationality" and "citizenship" though. But its a good essay. --HighKing (talk) 21:18, 30 December 2010 (UTC)