User talk:Fowler&fowler/Short History Indian Independence Movement

Latest comment: 2 years ago by 1234comrade in topic Communist Consolidation

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Chittagong Armoury Raid

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That was another big revolutionary event led by Surya Sen and Pritilata Waddedar. (notice the rare female participation in such activities). --Ragib 05:33, 18 September 2007 (UTC)Reply


Use of the word "terrorist"

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Please justify it with sources. There is a lot of precedence in not using the word terrorist to label freedom fighters, especially in events of past. The word terrorist has a massive amounts of negative connotation attached to it in todays world and does not easily translate to acts/movements in early 20th century. Finally, even if you can justify the label, it is highly insensitive to have a section heading that bunches completely different things like swadeshi movement and terrorism. --Blacksun 08:18, 21 September 2007 (UTC)Reply

Hmm I did not realize that this is simply a test article on Fowler's page. Ha, well, you know what will come up when you move this to live version :P --Blacksun 08:39, 21 September 2007 (UTC)Reply

Reply to the user of "terrorist"

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First of all, upon reflexion, I do agree with one point (whether you might be implying it or not): it is better to call the acts, "acts of terrorism," rather than the people, "terrorists." To that extent, at least, I will make a change.
Second, "Freedom fighter" is not a historiographic term. It is really another imprecise word like "patriot." The term for the Indian freedom movement used in most history books is "Indian nationalism." As for the terms "revolutionary" vs. "terrorist," (that someone else had brought up on the Talk:India page), they, of course, refer to different things. Gandhi, for example, was a revolutionary, albeit of a pacifist variety. But one of the things that identifies a revolutionary is an ideology of revolution (fast change). As far as I am aware, none of the "revolutionaries" in India who espoused violence (with the possible exception of M. N. Roy and V. D. Savarkar) were even remotely close to formulating an ideology in the same way as Michael Bakunin, Vladimir Lenin, Leon Trotsky, Rosa Luxemburg, or Mao, or Che Guevara, people that are referred to as revolutionaries (in the literature). To which remark, one might retort: "The ideology doesn't have to be theoretically sound or mature. After all the 'Hindustan Socialist Republican Association' of Chandrashekar Azad and Bhagat Singh, did formulate something, even though their group was really not much more than a reading group, when it came to ideological output." That seems to be the consensus among most sources and, for that reason, I do refer to the 1920s groups as "revolutionaries," since they had at least paid some attention to ideology. The 1905 groups, however, were too adhoc. "Political-religious terrorism" would really be the best description of their activity, at least that's what the sources (see below) use, and it jibes with the gist of the various official definitions ("violence against civilians for the advancement of a political view or religious belief"), but I'm open to suggestions.
Here are the quotes from some of the sources cited on the sub-page: 1. (Spear) "More ominously the pent-up emotion in Bengal engendered a group of terrorists who thought the attainment of freedom a religious duty and of assassination a sacred offering to the goddess Kali." (p.176). 2. (Stein) "Attempts were made to assassinate high British officials, and armed robberies were committed to finance terrorist activity and publications." (p. 291) 3. "Religious fervour combined with political protest in bombings of government buildings and assassinations of British officers by inspired young patriots. ... (About Aurobindo Ghose) In 1905, his advocacy of terrorism landed him in prison" (p. 193). 4. (Metcalf and Metcalf), "The movement was led by Surendranath Banerjea and other moderates, but small groups committed to terrorist activity also began to mobilize under its banner." (p 156). Fowler&fowler«Talk» 18:40, 21 September 2007 (UTC)Reply
Yes, act of terrorism is a decent change. However, the word terrorism is as imprecise and ambiguous as "Freedom fighter" and has an almost a rather different meaning attached to it in today's world where terrorist acts are performed in far away lands against citizens that have no real connection to whatever grievances the terrorists may have. This is -very- different than attacking people of British origin during a struggle for independence. Almost ALL revolutions have had terrorist elements - including American and French revolution. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Blacksun (talkcontribs) 06:25, 22 September 2007 (UTC)Reply


I think "Terrorist" and "Freedom Fighter" are two ends of the POV spectrum. One man's freedom fighter is another person's terrorist. So, I'd suggest using neither of these words. Wikipedia has precedent on this ... see the huge discussion and consensus about the category:terrorists. I think "revolutionary" is a neutral word here, or you might suggest another such word. But using terrorist would perhaps lead to needless POV accusations about this otherwise wonderful narrative. Thanks. --Ragib 08:15, 22 September 2007 (UTC)Reply

I agree, revolutionary is a more neutral term. -- Thoreaulylazy 09:03, 26 September 2007 (UTC)Reply
I disagree with revolutionary too. I think there is little reason to use such qualifiers. Just friggin say what they did and let the reader decide without damning them or praising them. --213.84.19.170 12:48, 7 October 2007 (UTC)Reply

Addendum: actually the Manual of Style guidelines suggest avoiding such words: Wikipedia:Words_to_avoid#Terrorist.2C_terrorism. So, I think a neutral word as suggested by the MoS is much better here.

Thanks. --Ragib 08:56, 28 September 2007 (UTC)Reply

Thanks, Ragib, and Thoreaulylazy, I will look into it. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 22:54, 28 September 2007 (UTC)Reply

Quote from From Plassey to Partition: A History of Modern India by Śekhara Bandyopādhyāẏa

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Here is a longer quote from: Bandyopādhyāẏa, Śekhara. 2005. From Plassey to Partition: A History of Modern India New Delhi and London: Orient Longmans. 548 pages ISBN 8125025960.

Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:54, 21 September 2007 (UTC)Reply

Comments on focus and revolutionary movement

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Hello Fowler, I was looking through the IIM draft that you're preparing. I think the conclusions you come with regards to India in and around the WWI may be describing some of the aspects of the movement, especially the revolutionary movement, may be erroneous. For example, the Ghadar movement was not scutlled swiftly, it (incorporating early events) started around 1908 and were (and still deemed) as a significant threat up until when it whittled away around 1919. Another, revolutionary movement, especially in Bengal, and immediately after the war began, has been described as significant to the extent that the political concessions around this time has been ascribed to the movement.(Majumder 1971, Dignan 1971) I think the error arises out of examining the revoltuinary moement into a period of 1905-1911 (which Fowler has shown above has been used as an evaluating point, probably because Bengalpartition was rolled back). Another thing is, Bengal was partitioned almost certainly to scutter the nationalist and terrorist movement arising from the region(the communal divide and didvide and rule theory). Could you please double check on these. Also, I felt in parts (eg coming of railways etc) loses focus or focuses wrongly and becomes more a history of India than a history of the Indian movement. I know its neccessary to include these to put context to the origin, but I felt these move awa quite a bit more than desirable. Regards,Rueben lys 19:57, 2 October 2007 (UTC)Reply

Yes, I am all too aware of the WWI time frame problems! Unfortunately, I got busy with my off-Wiki commitments, but I hope to get back to IIM in a day or two. In fact just this morning I was going add an interesting tidbit about Rowlatt, which as you know was partial response to what you describe above, but then I got sidetracked ... As for the railways, yes, what you say is true, but I've kept it there for now, because the History of India page doesn't have a general history 1858 to 1947; it has the British Raj, but the paragraph there is really about Company Raj, and ends with the mutiny. So, for now I'm cramming it in IIM with eventual goal of integrating that information somewhere. Why don't we touch base again in four or five days, after I've had time to do some more stuff. Thanks for the pertinent comments! Regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:21, 2 October 2007 (UTC)Reply

Communist Consolidation

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communist consolidation was another unknown independence organization which was founded in Cellular Jail by 39 freedom fighters but the main master mind was Hare Krishna Konar and Shiv Verma to found this communist as well as independent organizations. So please add this unsung organization history in the article. 1234comrade (talk) 08:36, 3 April 2022 (UTC)Reply