AndrewAtkinson
Des Marshal edit
Do you know Des? Leitmotiv (talk) 20:32, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
- Not personally AndrewAtkinson (talk) 07:43, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
- Okay, wasn't sure. I saw your cave reference that listed him. He's a prolific UK Caver and I've caved with him in the states recently. After seeing how U.S. Caves have a severe problem of being vandalized, he has only agreed that for now, a manageable solution is cave secrecy. He mentions the contrast between how the public in the U.S. use their caves and how the public uses them in the U.K. is stark. Leitmotiv (talk) 17:25, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
- Damage to caves is always bad. UK caves have been badly damaged in the past, and secrecy did not help, we have moved on to education. I have caved extensively all over the world, including the US. I was saddened by the damage in the US as I have been else where. I was shocked by the carelessness of cavers (spelunkers I guess) in the US, it has been 6 years, I hope it has got better. Secrecy is sometimes needed, but it will only work if most information is open. The only way is education, start with the cavers. Secrecy will work for a while, education will make it for ever, but only with openness. (I have lists of cave locations all over the US, some I know are sensitive sites, given to me with very little effort on my part, but I could have been anyone. Locations have become a currency in the US) You might ask why the openness. Well without it, caving seems like a secret sect, so it gets less respect, when someone not in the know finds something, they do not know what to do. The UK most people cavers and none cavers, respect the caves and understand how fragile it is. There will always be idiots, if only we could solve that. I totally agree with your aims, just think your method defies common sense. It is a shame that we will not know the correct answer without one of us been wrong. The UK system needs to be assessed bearing in mind the damage that was caused before the openness (TV program in the 1950's showing a famous TV presenter using stals as an instrument and one breaking!!) and just how crowded we are. Wishing you luck from a caving friendAndrewAtkinson (talk) 21:16, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
- I'm in agreement with you. But because the U.S. is behind Europe in terms of education, we need need to buy ourselves time, hence the secrecy of locations. I've never said that location secrecy is the be all to end all. It's just a tool that works, until it doesn't. I've heard from prominent cavers here in the U.S. that have been to Europe, and they say that secrecy isn't a big deal in Europe because the majority of the caves have been vandalized already and there's nothing left to lose. How accurate do you think that statement is? Leitmotiv (talk) 21:23, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
- Damage to caves is always bad. UK caves have been badly damaged in the past, and secrecy did not help, we have moved on to education. I have caved extensively all over the world, including the US. I was saddened by the damage in the US as I have been else where. I was shocked by the carelessness of cavers (spelunkers I guess) in the US, it has been 6 years, I hope it has got better. Secrecy is sometimes needed, but it will only work if most information is open. The only way is education, start with the cavers. Secrecy will work for a while, education will make it for ever, but only with openness. (I have lists of cave locations all over the US, some I know are sensitive sites, given to me with very little effort on my part, but I could have been anyone. Locations have become a currency in the US) You might ask why the openness. Well without it, caving seems like a secret sect, so it gets less respect, when someone not in the know finds something, they do not know what to do. The UK most people cavers and none cavers, respect the caves and understand how fragile it is. There will always be idiots, if only we could solve that. I totally agree with your aims, just think your method defies common sense. It is a shame that we will not know the correct answer without one of us been wrong. The UK system needs to be assessed bearing in mind the damage that was caused before the openness (TV program in the 1950's showing a famous TV presenter using stals as an instrument and one breaking!!) and just how crowded we are. Wishing you luck from a caving friendAndrewAtkinson (talk) 21:16, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
- Okay, wasn't sure. I saw your cave reference that listed him. He's a prolific UK Caver and I've caved with him in the states recently. After seeing how U.S. Caves have a severe problem of being vandalized, he has only agreed that for now, a manageable solution is cave secrecy. He mentions the contrast between how the public in the U.S. use their caves and how the public uses them in the U.K. is stark. Leitmotiv (talk) 17:25, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
Secrecy: I feel only works if embedded in an open system. UK uses it, along with other methods. If everything is secret, everything becomes something to look for. If 99.9% of stuff is available most people assume nothing is secret and do not look for it. Got no idea if that is right, but it has a good feel and a principle I try to follow. I am not sure that the statement about vandalism is fair. I think that there has been very little vandalism, and practically none for the last 20 or so years. Most of the damage in the UK is a combination of over use and lack of education. We have a cave within 25 miles of me that it is not unusual to get 100 people down it in a day. Yes, it is completely trashed, which is a shame. France is the same, and lack of understanding and education has caused damage, I was very lucky to find some new stuff in a dry cave in France, the new very large passage was very clear and shiny, with lots of stal and brilliant mud banks. The one we had come from was black, even the bits people could not reach. Reasonably sure this is due to large number of cavers with carbide. Okay carbide is a lighting system that has absolutely no use in caving any more. However, UK caves had started to restrict the use of carbide many (30, at least) years ago. It is a paradox, but most visitors only see our damaged caves, as they are the most sporting, and if you do not know someone that we you do not take them into delicate areas. The UK does still have lots that is worth preserving, quiet often in well travelled caves, not far from the beaten track. Now this is something that I know openness definitely protects, if the passage is on a survey that is published, people are less likely to go into it as it takes the adventure of the unknown away. Anyway we live and learn, I follow the US and French forums as do others, it is always good to review other peoples thoughts.AndrewAtkinson (talk) 09:11, 7 March 2012 (UTC)