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Please do not add inappropriate external links to Wikipedia. Wikipedia is not a mere directory of links nor should it be used for advertising or promotion. Inappropriate links include (but are not limited to) links to personal web sites, links to web sites with which you are affiliated, and links that exist to attract visitors to a web site or promote a product. See the external links guideline and spam policies for further explanations of links that are considered appropriate. If you feel the link should be added to the article, then please discuss it on the article's talk page rather than re-adding it. See the welcome page to learn more about Wikipedia. Thank you. Mwanner | Talk 13:22, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Kilts & Tartan page edits

You wrote: "You appear to have a problem with an external link to http://clan.com/kiltsandtartan on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilt but I and my kilted brethren think you're wrong, whoever you are. Please explain your reasons. The guidelines rightly outlaw commercial postings and self-promotion. But this free resource is neither. The work in question is entirely non-commercial (other than its including an appendix of reputable suppliers (in a world where many people are fooled by rip offs). And the author establishes his professional credentials on the cover as a justified claim to expertise, but thereafter admirably avoids self-promotion. I have no direct connection with this, other than being a big fan of the work, and its value to anyone exploring kilt wearing for the first time. It is one of the most important works in this field in decades, and in common with almost everyone who knows anything about this subject, I think it deserves to be here. So if you think differently, explain why. That's not just my view but the consensus of the leading kilt-wearing experts and enthusiasts in the world, where it's been reviewed to huge acclaim and universal approval for its importance. See http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21721 So why do you think you know better? Please justify!"

Well, if I were buying a kilt, I find it useful. But helping people buy stuff is really not what we're about-- we're an encyclopedia. Wikipedia's External links guidelines are not just about banning commercial sites. Look at "Links normally to be avoided", item 1. "Any site that does not provide a unique resource beyond what the article would contain if it became a Featured article." From a quick read, it appears to me that most of its factual contents (leaving aside the extensive chatty promotion of kilt-wearing generally) could, in fact, rather easily be incorporated into our article. And despite the author's credentials, it is anything but a scholarly treatment.

Also, it's really quite a bit less non-commercial than you claim. Allow me to quote from page 25:

"Here one resource on the web stands head and shoulders above the rest. It is the most complete and comprehensive, listing all fabrics known to be in production at all the main tartan (and tweed) weavers, plus thousands more that can be woven to order.

It is also, by common consent, the easiest to use. And here too I must declare an interest since, as it happens, I designed it myself. This is the Scotweb Tartan & Fabric Finder. (See Resources at end)"

Following said link takes one directly to an online retail site. So someone following this supposedly impartial advice is led straightaway to the author's rather pricey webstore empire. In short, no, I do not think that this link meets our guidelines. -- Mwanner | Talk 13:35, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

You wrote: "Pardon this question if it seems rude, but do you actually wear a kilt? I find it hard to believe that you are suggesting the contents of this short book could be compressed into a Wikipediia article if you've ever been faced with doing so yourself for the first time. If you have any idea about the number of issues involved this seems to me ridiculous. It covers massive ground, in a complex area, which is why so many people have welcomed it with open arms. But to reduce this to being about only 'buying a kilt' is nonsense. You appear to be reading it with what appears to my friends and I to be a suspiciously hostile attitude. Why?

Yes, if the author agreeed, he could rewrite it for use in Wikipedia, but the same applies to every bood on earth. That's not the point. I didn't think Wikipedia existed as a grand plan to strongarm authors into transfering their work into the public domain. Do you? Otherwise, there's no way it could all go here. The number of illustrations alone make this impossible (which are useful, not just eye candy). And agreed, Wikipedia is not (just) about helping people buy stuff. But this covers every practically every aspect of wearing one, particularly for first-timers, as well as very valuably giving non-intimidating moral support (which you rather damningly deem chatty promotion, as if that's a crime). As for the link to that tartan finder, I've spent years looking at tartans online both for myself and for many associates and it's factually true that the one mentioned is the most complete listing of woven fabrics anywhere. So to criticise the author for daring to mention it because its his own work seems laughably uptight.

I strongly suspect you have some other agenda going on here. Your mention at the end of the "author's rather pricey webstore empire" tells me you have more of a vested interest than you're letting on. You've done all this research with comparison price shopping (as if that were a relevant factor in any case!) just to edit this article? Pull the other one. I've discussed this issue with trusted colleagues and we feel unanimous that there are no reasonable grounds to exclude this important reference on the flimsy grounds you've given. So we're left asking why the entire kilted community is being abused by one zealot's unilateral decisions. Shall we find someone higher in the Wikipedia hierarchy of demonstrably independent status to adjudicate? Because frankly, we smell a rat here. Widipedia editors are meant to be unbiased, not just contributors. We have no confidence in you."

No, I don't wear a kilt, but that fact is entirely irrelevent. An encycopedia article on kilts certainly does not need all of the material covered in this booklet, at least a quarter of which is purely promotional. And no, we're not interested in strong-arming authors into transfering their work into the public domain. There is nothing in this booklet that belongs in our article that couldn't be easily rewritten and added by anyone, and I doubt that it would add more than a paragraph or two to the whole. Read through it again, crossing out everything that doesn't belong in an encyclopedia, and you'll see what I mean. While you're at it, circle all of the illustrations that are worthwhile additions to a scholarly article-- I don't see more than one or two; the rest are, indeed "eye candy". Consider that the first dozen pages are entirely "why everyone ought to wear kilts" and the last dozen are all about accessories, and thus inapplicable to this article, and your "book" covering "massive ground" shrinks to barely 30 narrow booklet pages, and that is still filled with vastly important statements such as "For most daytime events, particularly when outdoors, you would wear a Lovat or dark tweed jacket instead of the Argyll, with or without matching vest, and horn buttons" or "Check that your supplier’s jackets really are all 100% pure wool barathea; if not, make a hasty exit." This is just not encyclopedic material.

But from the tone of your response, I'm sure nothing I can say will convince you that I am not acting from some nefarious purpose (what, is the implcation that I have a competing website? or is it that I am anti-kilt?), so by all means, please avail yourselves of Wikipedia's dispute resolution process. And Merry Christmas to you too! -- Mwanner | Talk 13:35, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Please refrain from making unconstructive edits to Wikipedia, as you did to Kilt. Your edits appear to constitute vandalism and have been reverted. If you would like to experiment, please use the sandbox. Thank you. —DerHexer (Talk) 16:44, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

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