User:Richhoncho/Song lists

List of Songs and by subject and song categories by subject.

The main problem with these lists and categories are two-fold, one is the actual subject matter notable, and if notability is established, editors not understanding the difference between "about" and "containing" a certain word.

Song lyrics extensively use Simile, Metaphor, Allegory, Alliteration (sometimes words are added just because they sound nice), and every other literary and poetic device known. Sometimes a song’s meaning could be as plain as day, sometimes it is so obscure that it is possible not even the songwriter understand what the meaning is! This is all by-the-by, as it is not for Wikipedians to have an opinion when creating or editing an article – we should be reporting somebody else’s opinion with references.

Generally, Lists of songs by subject and the categories are created as "Songs about Foo" but that is then widened by successive editors to include anything that mentions Foo and become depositories for unreferenced and poorly referenced entries, many entries that are not suitable for a WP article, and lots of redirects and links pointing to the wrong article because editors add songs just because the relevant word appears in either the title or lyric. There are also editors out there that think because a word appears in a song title then that is what the song is about.

I note some editors consider a listing in the Green Book as sufficient reason to make the list notable. There are 1800 unnotated lists in that book. Does that make every list in there notable?

Some of the subjects are worthy of a scholarly article which references notable songs with lyric quotes (subject to relevant and important constraints imposed by WP) and detail, but creating lists of songs by subject is often an exercise in indiscriminate collection of information, as I will point out below, purely by noting some of the entries :-

List of songs about the September 11 attacks

One of these lists that I think should continue to exist is List of songs about the September 11 attacks because it is about a specific event (and I supported keep in an AfD). However, just taking a couple of entries from the list,

Words I Never Said, a quick inspection of the article states (and referenced) that the song is about relationships. Not one word about 9/11 in the song article.

By the Sword (EP) is a charity single for 9/11 – Not a song about 9/11.

Songs about bridges- category now deleted

Bridge over Troubled Water (song). The line in the song is “Like a Bridge over” which signifies we are not talking about a bridge, but using a simile, (that word “like” is the giveaway), so it most certainly NOT about a bridge in the structural sense of the word, yet an editor has decided that the song should be classified in Category:Songs about bridges.

Ode to Billy Joe is also included in this category, along with Category:Songs about suicide but reading through the lyrics, it could also be categorized under Songs about Mississippi, Songs about rivers, Songs about news, Songs about apple pie, Songs about preachers, Songs about Tupelo and Songs about paternal deaths. Daresay I missed some more.

Songs about rainbows - category now deleted

She's a Rainbow, again a simple simile, the song is not about a Rainbow which starts, “A rainbow is an optical and meteorological phenomenon that causes a spectrum of light to appear in the sky when the Sun shines on to droplets of moisture in the Earth's atmosphere. It takes the form of a multicoloured arc. Rainbows caused by sunlight always appear in the section of sky directly opposite the sun.” So how can this article be contained in List of songs about Rainbows?

Over the Rainbow is also listed in List of songs about Rainbows (by a redirect, I might add), yet we all know the song lyric that says, “SOMEWHERE over the rainbow” (capitals for emphasis) - this is a song not about a rainbow, but a song about somewhere else.

Songs about bicycles

Daisy Bell is significant for having the words, “On a bicycle built for two.” In one verse there is the line, “We will go tandem as man and wife,...” pretty obvious to me at least, this is not a song about bicycles, but about that old familiar song lyric theme – the beast with two backs. Perhaps instead of List of songs about bicycles it should be in List of songs that uses the word bicycle as a euphemism for sex.

Handlebars (song) is also included. However the reference link on the article page quotes the songwriter as saying , "The song is about the idea that we have so much incredible potential as human beings to be destructive or to be creative. And it's tragic to me that the appetite for military innovation is endless, but when it comes to taking on a project like ending world hunger, it's seen as outlandish. It's not treated with the same seriousness," So that’s another entry that doesn’t belong in the list. Reading further in the link, perhaps it belongs in a List of songs written on a bicycle?

Songs about automobiles

I Drove All Night. This is contained in Category:Songs about automobiles and there is absolutely no mention of an automobile. The words are “I drove all night to get to you”. Not by any extreme interpretation is the song about an automobile.

Terraplane Blues - the article says, "Johnson used the car model Terraplane as a metaphor for sex. In the lyrical narrative, the car will not start and Johnson suspects that his girlfriend let another man drive it when he was gone. In describing the various mechanical problems with his Terraplane, Johnson creates a setting of thinly veiled sexual innuendo." Perhaps one for Category:Songs which use a car as an euphemism for sex?

Songs about alligators

See You Later, Alligator. Fortunately nobody has created a list or category for alligators, but bottom dollar says this song would be included.

Songs about telephones

Calling You (Blue October song) is listed in Category:Songs about telephones , there is no references in the article to what the lyrics are about. Therefore it fails on defining characteristics and shouldn't be included in the category. We should understand the different between ""about a telephone" and "about USING a telephone" - I doubt there are many songs actually about a telephone...

List of apocalyptic songs

This list of "apocalyptic and post-apocalyptic songs" didn't appear to have any irrelevant entries, but with no references and very few valid bluelinks it was hard to tell.

List of songs about school

This list is much better, gives an introduction about what can be included, why the songs are significant, pretty well referenced, shame about the number of non-notable songs in List of songs about school.

Let's see if we can categorize a song by word(s)

Having listed a few howlers that are appearing I thought it might be great fun to see how a very short Bob Dylan song could be categorised/listed. Let’s try Subterranean Homesick Blues,lyrics here, I can find, subterranean, home, sickness, blues, basements, medicine, pavements, governments, trench coats, Badges, redundancy, influenza, God, streets, caps and bills, and that’s just the first verse. None of which is what the "song is about."

WP Policies/Guidelines

Here’s a list of some of the guidelines that could be considered to affect:

• WP:SONGS which says, “Per WP:CATEGORY, a song may be categorized by a characteristic (such as producer, composer, record-label, etc.) only if it is a defining characteristic of the song (i.e. reliable, secondary sources commonly and consistently define the song as having the characteristic—not just mention it in passing or for completeness).”

• WP:LISTCRUFT which includes :

The list is unencyclopaedic, i.e. it would not be expected to be included in an encyclopaedia.

Determining membership of the list requires adoption of a non-neutral point of view, and reliable sources for avoiding it are not available.

Determining membership of the list involves original research or synthesis of ideas.

The list's membership is volatile and requires a disproportionate amount of effort to keep up to date.

NB. I would say the effort would be in pruning back inappropriate entries, as already noted above, rather than keeping up to date.

• WP:LISTN, which says "A list topic is considered notable if it has been discussed as a group or set by independent reliable sources"

• WP:CATEGORY says, The central goal of the category system is to provide links to all Wikipedia articles in a hierarchy of categories which readers can browse, knowing essential, defining characteristics of a topic, and quickly find sets of articles on topics that are defined by those characteristics. Because a word is used in a song is NOT a defining categoristic under any circumstances.

Personal statement

The reason for this article is not because I think songs are not worthy, or low culture, or not suitable encyclopedic entries, rather than they so important that they rise above simplistic listings by single words.