User:Nick carson/policy discussion archive

From WP:NOR - Jan 13-16 2009

Silly Question

Why is wikipedia concerned with verifying information by citing mainstream sources of information that may be and in many cases are susceptible to bias, and not concerned with truth? This is an encyclopedia, not a mirror of mainstream information sources. Has this fundamental issue been raised before, if so where can I find the discussion? And why was the emphasis not changed? If not, I'd like to discuss why wikipedia is not concerned with truth, yet claims to be an encyclopedia. It should also be noted that WP actually allows original research in images. Nick carson (talk) 03:26, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

WP:V covers this. --Ronz (talk) 03:55, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

It isn't that we don't care about "truth"... it's that "truth" is subjective... there is often a legitimate debate as to what the "truth" actually is. Thus, we use use a different standard... verifiablility. If something is both verifiable and true... so much the better. Blueboar (talk) 06:09, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

In general, sources that can reasonably be regarded as reliable don't use the word "truth" to describe what they're asserting. Why should an encyclopedia such as WP assert such a thing as "truth"? Does any remotely credible encyclopedia assert it's putting forth "The Truth"? Even the Catholic Encyclopedia asserts no such thing. Rather, encyclopedias tend to say they're putting forth information of some kind. Did I miss anything important? ... Kenosis (talk) 06:57, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

I speak of truth in terms of reality, fact, etc, such as the 'sky is blue' statement. Many of us working with detailed or obscure information that may be significant and noteworthy as per WP policy, are forced to omit such information fundamentally because it is detailed or obscure or unknown by mainstream, verifiable sources of information as per WP:V.

There are alot of things that are true, yet are not verifiable as per WP:V, surely we don't wish to omit crucial, true information from WP. Need we mention the tendency of WP to favour mainstream points of view, a contradiction as it conflicts with WP:NPOV, and thus the omission of significant, notable, important information that may also be obscure or unknown by many.

I simply can't agree that sources of information subject to bias and lack of quality constitute a better standard than original research encompassing multiple sources of information which may or may not include direct factual observation. Nick carson (talk) 11:33, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

I think I understand the puzzlement behind the original question. The "verifiability" bit is largely to prevent people from pushing their own personal points of view - a problem which often arises in an open encyclopedia, but which can usually be dealt with by citing WP:NPOV, WP:V, WP:RS etc. and deleting the offendinging content.

But WP:RS sets what it regards as minimum standards for reliability, and admits that sources that meet these criteria may not be reliable in particular cases. For example a scientific article several years ago by a reputable author in a reputable journal may have been refuted in the meantime, so you could either ignore that theory or cite the later refutation and any theory that is now regarded as "true" or even promising, provided you don't over-hype the later theory. In practice it's mainly just common sense, and the rules only get an airing when there's a dispute. --Philcha (talk) 11:40, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

I think Nick carson's later post (11:33, 14 January 2009) goes a bit too far. "The sky is blue" is generally an uncontroversial statment and does not need refs - except in some special contexts, e.g why it's blue or how it looks to people with certain colour-vision deficiencies. Re "sources of information subject to bias and lack of quality", the formal, usually process-/organisation-based criteria at WP:RS are only a start, and relevant cricisms of one WP:RS by another WP:RS are fair game. However there is no conflict between WP:NPOV and WP:V, as WP:NPOV stresses the need for WP:RS. These policies are needed to prevent WP from being deluged by WP:FRINGE theories and their enthusiasts. --Philcha (talk) 11:51, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Grouping non-mainstream subject matter into WP:FRINGE isn't fair. Just because a theory, musical act, town, suburb, river, etc isn't well published by a RS and notable within the mainstream doesn't mean that it isn't important or notable. Granted, I imagine there are alot of people out there who push untrue, fundamentally fictional, fringe theories and subject matter, but what about genuine subject matter that may only be known directly by a 'fringe' minority that may not publish their information in the conventional sense? Such an example would be a piece of artwork that influences a group of artists that subsequently influence mainstream popular culture at some point down the road. Another example would be a musical act who's work in melding particular styles/genres is genuinely original and is later picked up by another mainstream popular musical act who then gain credit as they are published in the conventional sense, years down the track? WP policy has progressed to encompass reliable blogs, what about reliable zines, street press, etc? Why can't we progress now?

Not only this, but I know of several editors and estimate many thousands, who spend a significant portion of their time contributing to WP trying to cite resources for information that they could otherwise prove and verify with OR or direct observation. Surely in such a case as OR and direct observation are used, the information can still be challenged as in other WP policies, and if it is a genuinely false fringe theory or subject matter, the false information will inevitably be discovered and corrected. Sorry for the passionate diction but I'm baffled at how things such as OR have become somewhat of a dirty word on WP, there are just as many arguments for why they can be used as a progression of current WP policy and verified in the same manner. Nick carson (talk) 12:22, 14 January 2009 (UTC

It is very simple. Wikipedia, by design, is not the place for original ideas or results to appear. There are many venues where original ideas and results can appear and if these are suitably notable then the ideas and results reported elsewhere can appear in Wikipedia. Therefore, anyone with a great new idea should automatically not think of Wikipedia when considering where to first publish it. The restriction has nothing to do with the utility or merit of the material that is forbidden, it's simply a chosen policy. Allowing only already-published material to be used as a basis for Wikipedia greatly strengthens Wikipedia, to the extent that the restriction is honored.

You didn't say it but you could have that the major print encyclopedia, the Encyclopedia Britannica, has often times solicited major articles from world experts (Albert Einstein, for example.) In all probability such experts have, in the material they contributed, included some original research - and that original research enhanced the value of the contribution. Wikipedia works in a different way and has, in effect, chosen to forbid such enhancement. Given the open nature of Wikipedia that is a good choice.

Nothing I say is meant to deprecate the value of the sort of research you appear to desire to be done. The exclusion of OR isn't based on value or lack thereof. If you want to do original research, do it. Just don't publish it first in Wikipedia. Minasbeede (talk) 01:16, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

In the interests of encyclopedic geekiness, are you aware that "the sky is blue" is challenged (in a way) by the article: Distinguishing blue from green in language

However, on a more serious note, if something is not verifiable, then it is unfair on a reader to state it as a fact, so we have agreed that it is outside our mission. For example, a newspaper might say that "Chocolate mousse is a delicious, satisfying snack", and a reader will assume that is the opinion of the food critic, or may think it to be a fact. But if we say anything at all, we should only say "Chocolate mousse is marketed as a snack food, that the Boggington Chronicle says is both satisfying and tastes good." At least that is my simple-minded way of viewing verifiability.

Nick, could you post examples of facts that you would like to put in Wikipedia but cannot as they are unverifiable?

--Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 12:24, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

By the same token, it is unfair to the reader if a verifiable piece of information was cited from a source that favours mainstream POV, let alone anything that is not fact as synthesised through OR or other means. If such information is outside of our 'mission' then why not increase the 'mission'? I merely ask, why not?

I can, one can be found in the band "Ohana", who have incorporated in their work elements of minimalism, math rock, post-hardcore and post-punk to create an original sound that is as yet unheard of in Australia at least. Such information can be ascertained by direct observation by people with knowledge and experience in such areas and has thus been published in countless zines and street press articles. One of the more 'mainstream' sources being several issues of the magazine "Mess+Noise".

Another example can be found in tracing fashion trends from sub- and alternative cultures that permeate into mainstream/popular society. Such information that is currently not included in WP but is well known to many and well published by reliable unconventional sources.

However, this example is not my reasoning for attempting to generate discussion on the topic. I'm looking for some in depth discussion into how we can improve the core WP policies by encouraging a progression of their contents and goals and introducing new ideas that can increase the inclusion of notable and specific information on WP, the quality of articles in general, the inclusion of OR assessed on the individual's knowledge, experience in the field and the reliability of the sources they are working with, and to decrease WPs reliance on mainstream sources of information by making WP policy inclusive of unconventional sources such as zines, blogs, street press and other alternative forms of information conveyance, not just published, but synthesised and collated. For what more is WP without such things than a mere reflection of mainstream, popular, conventional society? There is alot more to life than that and to exclude such information from an encyclopedia is to ignore a significant portions of one's own history and present. Nick carson (talk) 12:40, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Hroðulf, nice catch re Distinguishing blue from green in language!

Nick carson's comments (12:22, 14 January 2009) highlight that "mainstream" is ambiguous. I was thinking mainly of science because that's mainly where I edit, but in the arts, including popular culture, a lot of significant ideas start as "non-mainstream". However the next sentence of his comment shows the problem with "non-mainstream" anything: if no-one outside those directly involved pays attention to a theory, musical act, town, suburb, river, etc., then by real-world standards as well as WP:NOTABILITY it isn't notable. Without this rule WP would simply be the world's biggest free advertising billboard - and widely ignored, as very few people deliberately look at ads (yes, I can provide refs for this).

Re Nick carson's examples of innovative art, music, etc., it's not WP's job to predict future trends - an activity in which the success rate is rather low. Per the 2nd Sturgeon's Law I would guess that the great majority of innovative art, music, etc. is soon and in most cases deservedly forgotten. Almost by definition the ones that succeed and are notable in the real-world sense are those that are noticed by "mainstream" commentators.

Re the difficulty of sourcing material that's widely accepted but not obvious to primary school kids, I sympathise. In science articles, editors often need to obtain decent text-books to source all the basic stuff that's not discussed in academic journals - public libraries and Google Books have been good to me. Since my interests are not confined to science, I realise that it's harder to find text-books on non-academic subjects - but Google Books is still worth a try. If you're that keen on the subject, you'll make the effort to find sources. There are other methods - asking at Wikiproject pages, asking specific editors who are active in that area, finding enthusiast societies and asking them (that's how I got info on the contributions of Adolf Anderssen to chess problem composition). --Philcha (talk) 13:11, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Folks, I think we have ventured well away from the purpose of this talk page... which is to discuss the NOR policy. I probably started us down the road in the first place, by attempting to be nice and answering Nick's question... and I now appoligize for that. Ronz had it right to begin with... this is a discussion that should be taking place at WT:V, WT:FRINGE and perhaps several other guideline and policy talk pages. It isn't, however, a discussion that we should have on this talk page... it does not involve WP:NOR. Blueboar (talk) 14:45, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps we should have moved it to WT:V at the outset, but since we didn't, it is ok to have an off-topic discussion if it is an answer to a question that the original poster thought was on topic. The original post was not spam, which should be the only reason to kill a thread based on topic.

Here's my attempt to draw this to a close: Nick Carson wrote:"why not increase the 'mission'". Wikis can of course be more flexible about verifiability and truth, to investigate non-mainstream parts of human knowledge - that is one reason why there are many other wikis, such as those at Wikia.

--Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 14:57, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

<- I'm sorry, but the mere use of the word "truth" as a proposed standard for writing an encyclopedia is a total red herring. As opposed to what? Editors are lying? Engaging in a conspiracy to selectively mislead WP's readership? I think not. Or is the assertion that the lack of an official standard of "truth" results in an unnecessarily high rate of untruthful information? No, it's a red herring, a phantom. WP already deals with this issue by its three existing content policies, WP:NPOV, WP:V and WP:NOR. ... Kenosis (talk) 19:37, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

The statement that no one pays attention to to a theory, musical act, town, etc who is not directly involved is unsubstantiated. And even if it was, attention is no grounds for classification of notability or importance. Please explain what you mean by 'real-world standards', I hope you don't mean mainstream/popular society standards. Success and notability regarded by mainstream commentators is no indication of a subject matter's, particularly in the case of music, art, film, etc, notability or importance. Note that my use of the word 'truth' stems from the fact that it is used in this policy itself.

My words are being taken somewhat out of context, some examples... I never said it was WPs job to predict future trends. I never suggested that WP editors were lying, nor did I suggest they were engaged in a conspiracy, let alone did I even introduce such words into the discussion... Please understand what I wrote, re-read it if you like and absorb it. Other unsubstantiated and uneducated comments were made including... Innovative art, music, etc is 'deservedly forgotten'. The assertion that these discussions belong in WT:FRINGE.

Philcha, I guess part of my argument centres around the fact that one or a number of sources used to cite particulars and prove their verifiability is not as reliable as a synthesis and collation of a collection of sources, as conducted by one or more or an entire team of editors, as is the case with many article re-writes and wikiprojects.

In regards to Blueboar's suggestions, I totally understand but have in the past been passed around the 3 core policy talk pages, where is the discussion be had regarding the progression of these policies if not on their talk pages? Am I to copy and paste discussion so that it appears on each talk page simultaneously?

In regards to Hrothulf, that may very well be what inevitably happens to WP, editors may move to more specific Wikis which will ultimately be disjointed and separate. Why deal with detailed and specific information by palming it off to all sorts of sub-wikis? Why not keep it within it's original context, located within a centralised source such as WP itself. Nick carson (talk) 23:50, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Nick, your question was, "Has this fundamental issue been raised before, if so where can I find the discussion?" The policy against original research is one of the few "fundamental" rules in wikipedia-goes way, way back. (2004?) I don't have a crystal ball, but I think it's safe to say the odds of this policy being reversed are nill. If you go to the bottom of the main policy page you'll find there some links to some of the earlier discussions about it by Jimmy Wales. Professor marginalia (talk) 00:06, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

I never requested or suggested the policy be reversed, I'm initiating discussion as to how we can improve upon it. Early comments by Jimmy Wales helped to establish the current versions of the core policies which as you said, perhaps go back to 2004, I'm looking for discussion that is a bit more recent than 4 or 5 years ago. Why are contributors to policy talk pages more keen to set the policies in stone than they are to keep them progressing, evolving, encompassing? Perhaps this is a case for WP:IAR in that the core policies are not willing to be amended and improved upon thus preventing editors from improving and maintaining WP. Nick carson (talk) 00:14, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

With Wikipedia is not a publisher of original thought and Wikipedia is not an anarchy in effect, Ignore All Rules would be a futile waste of time. Start with an essay and see it you can inspire some kind of a grassroots movement among editors interested in changing the policy. Professor marginalia (talk) 00:28, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

<-- The reason for the fundamental policy mandate which says "Verifiability, not truth" is, I suspect, that the word "truth" lies somewhere in the area of both useless and meaningless as an editorial policy. From the perspective of WP readers who may wish to question anything in WP, the only practical question of any relevance when someone writes something in WP that the person writing it asserts to be "truth" is, essentially, "where can I, the reader, double-check this?" Without a doubt there are things-in-the-world that are truthful but not independently verifiable, but the mandate for us, which began to be set in place as early as 2003, was that WP should be limited to things that are verifiable in the event any question arises about the veracity of a statement. See, e.g. the earliest version of WP:V . See also, e.g., this email from WP founder Jimmy Wales, which explains why the relevant standard is "verifiability, not truth". ... Kenosis (talk) 04:44, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Such a mandate is outdated as it excludes information which is "true" yet not independently verifiable, thus excluding crucial information from inclusion in WP. My argument is that there is a better way than mere verifiability and better goals than merely the inclusion of only verifiable information. In the meantime, or in the event that editors are reluctant to amend and progress such policies, such exclusions render WP unreliable as a result of its uncomprehensive nature. Professor marginalia, I may just take up your advice, though I wish there was 10 lives I could live to create the time needed to devote to the many things that I feel are worth devoting my time to. I fear much of this discussion has glazed over a portion of its contributors whom have subsequently resorted to policy reiteration. Nick carson (talk) 13:03, 15 January 2009 (UTC)