Template:Did you know nominations/Patrick Henry Cronin
- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: rejected by BlueMoonset (talk) 23:09, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
Issues with close paraphrasing; nominator is unable to deal with them at present
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Patrick Henry Cronin
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Famous murder victim Dr. Patrick Henry Cronin
... that in 1889, nearly 12,000 people came to view the coffin of Patrick Henry Cronin, who was murdered because of his involvement in a secret society? Source: Hunt, Henry M. The Crime of the Century; or, The Assassination of Dr. Patrick Henry Cronin. A complete and authentic history of the greatest of modern conspiracies. University of California Libraries. Chicago : H.L. & D. H. Kochersperger, 1889, pp. 224.- ALT1:... that the Patrick Henry Cronin murder trial was, in 1889, the longest running in American history? Source: O'Brien, Gillian. Blood Runs Green: the Murder That Transfixed Gilded Age Chicago. The University of Chicago Press, 2016.
- Reviewed: Optima Signature
Created by MidwestCuttlefish (talk). Self-nominated at 18:35, 12 September 2017 (UTC).
Nomination is late, but squeaks by via Rule D9: new as of 1 August and 5x expanded starting 29 August, so newer than the oldest on the nominations page (23 August). In addition, it's only MidwestCuttlefish's 4th DYK, so leniency is more appropriate. Article is long enough, sourced, and hooks check out with inline citations. QPQ provided but not necessary. Although several of the defendants were ultimately acquitted, that two were found guilty (without verdicts being overturned) seems enough to sustain the claim made in ALT0. MidwestCuttlefish, you should probably also add the claim in ALT1 to the body of the article, not just the lead. --Usernameunique (talk) 00:41, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
I'm concerned that some of the phrasing in this article is too close to that of its sources. Compare for example "Thousands of members quit Clan na Gael in sympathy, forming their own camps" with "thousands of members quitting Clan-na-Gael in sympathy and forming their own camps". Nikkimaria (talk) 13:39, 23 September 2017 (UTC)
- Note: the nomination was not late, contrary to the original review, since it was moved from a user sandbox to article space on September 11, one day prior to its nomination. The close paraphrasing still needs to be addressed, but since the nomination disappeared from the DYK pages after it was pulled from prep and was just restored and the nominator notified today, nothing is considered late due to that disconnect. BlueMoonset (talk) 22:16, 5 November 2017 (UTC)
- Close paraphrasing has been addressed. MidwestCuttlefish (talk) 20:34, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
- No, the particular example provided has been edited - suggest comparing article against sources to guide further work in addressing close paraphrasing. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:22, 7 November 2017 (UTC)
- I ran the Copyvio detector and edited the issues. Maybe you could be more specific about what you're objecting to? MidwestCuttlefish (talk) 20:00, 7 November 2017 (UTC)
- Copyvio detector will only detect exact matches - that's not the primary issue here, my concern is close paraphrasing. To give you another example, compare "Clan na Gael was a secret revolutionary society devoted to forcibly freeing Ireland from British control, a spin-off of the Fenian Brotherhood. The Clan was popular among Irishmen and Irish Americans, and by the 1800s, the Clan had 40,000 members. The organization was skilled at fundraising for Irish causes" and "Clan na Gael was a secret revolutionary society dedicated to freeing Ireland from British control by force. An offshoot of the Fenian movement, it proved enormously popular among Irishmen and Irish Americans in the United States, and by the late 1880s its membership had swelled to 40,000. The Clan excelled at fundraising for the Irish cause". The two are not identical and so will likely not be flagged by the tool, but they are too close. Nikkimaria (talk) 20:23, 7 November 2017 (UTC)
- I made a few more changes, but I feel some instances that you consider close paraphrasing are because there are limited numbers of ways to say the same thing. Maybe we could get another opinion. MidwestCuttlefish (talk) 22:01, 7 November 2017 (UTC)
- @Nikkimaria: Have your concerns about this nomination been met? Cwmhiraeth (talk) 10:04, 19 November 2017 (UTC)
- @Cwmhiraeth: See here. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:21, 19 November 2017 (UTC)
- There have also been similar concerns regarding close paraphrasing in MidwestCuttlefish's other current DYK nomination, Template:Did you know nominations/Elizabeth Chambers Morgan. BlueMoonset (talk) 21:29, 19 November 2017 (UTC)
- @Cwmhiraeth: See here. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:21, 19 November 2017 (UTC)
- @Nikkimaria: Have your concerns about this nomination been met? Cwmhiraeth (talk) 10:04, 19 November 2017 (UTC)
- I made a few more changes, but I feel some instances that you consider close paraphrasing are because there are limited numbers of ways to say the same thing. Maybe we could get another opinion. MidwestCuttlefish (talk) 22:01, 7 November 2017 (UTC)
- Copyvio detector will only detect exact matches - that's not the primary issue here, my concern is close paraphrasing. To give you another example, compare "Clan na Gael was a secret revolutionary society devoted to forcibly freeing Ireland from British control, a spin-off of the Fenian Brotherhood. The Clan was popular among Irishmen and Irish Americans, and by the 1800s, the Clan had 40,000 members. The organization was skilled at fundraising for Irish causes" and "Clan na Gael was a secret revolutionary society dedicated to freeing Ireland from British control by force. An offshoot of the Fenian movement, it proved enormously popular among Irishmen and Irish Americans in the United States, and by the late 1880s its membership had swelled to 40,000. The Clan excelled at fundraising for the Irish cause". The two are not identical and so will likely not be flagged by the tool, but they are too close. Nikkimaria (talk) 20:23, 7 November 2017 (UTC)
- @MidwestCuttlefish: You asked for a second opinion on this nomination so I compared the article with one of its main sources using "Duplicate Detector" and I agree with Nikkimaria. It's not that passages have been copied wholesale from the original, but the structure of the paragraph tends to follow that of the source, with various substitutions of different words. You should look at the advice given here, where it states that you should "review information from reliable sources, extract the salient points, and use your own words, style and sentence structure to draft text for the article". Cwmhiraeth (talk) 10:21, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
It has been two weeks since the above second opinion, and the nominator has not returned, though the ping should have been seen later that day. I am marking this for closure due to continuing issues with close paraphrasing. I will leave it to Nikkimaria to determine whether the article itself needs to be templated due to said close paraphrasing. Should MidwestCuttlefish return before this nomination is closed and agree to do the comprehensive work necessary to fully address the issue, the nomination can continue. BlueMoonset (talk) 15:19, 4 December 2017 (UTC)- I don't have time to address this at this time. Maybe if I were working with another editor I could go over the page in a timely manner, but since I've been working alone, the page will have to sit as is until someone else can edit it. MidwestCuttlefish (talk) 20:08, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
