Template:Did you know nominations/Nader Kadhim

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 22:59, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Nader Kadhim

(

• Back to T:TDYK
• Article history

)

• ... that despite being born to a Shia family and influenced in childhood by Islamic revival, Bahraini cultural critic Nader Kadhim (pictured) refused to be classified as Islamist or Shia intellectual?

• Reviewed: HMS Algerine (J213)

Moved to mainspace by Mohamed CJ (talk). Self nominated at 16:37, 2 April 2014 (UTC).

Conditional Review All of the sourcing is in Arabic. This is going to be tough to review, unless we have an Arabic reader as a reviewer. Can't review for copy violations or that the sourcing supports the tag line. Subject is notable enough, with 9 books to his credit as laid out in the tables. But absent a language competent reviewer, I would WP:AGF for the article creator, and would take their word for it. Long enough and new enough. The image appears to be free. I could find no English language sources on line, other than Twitter.7&6=thirteen (☎) 13:50, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

• All sourcing is in Arabic. I don't think this is a problem; in the past I have reviewed and approved articles that were either fully or mainly supported by a foreign language without any problems. You could post in the talk page for more input. Mohamed CJ (talk) 18:45, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

I was not complaining. It just creates an obvious problem for those of us who are not Arabic literate. 18:50, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

Ah. I can definitely see that. Google doesn't help much either. Thanks for taking a look I guess. Mohamed CJ (talk) 18:51, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

I should have taken Arabic instead of French. My late uncle was fluent in it; he learned it decades ago at the army language school in Monterey, California, and had a perfect accent. But unless I get a Ouija board he'll be no help now. Sorry. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 19:02, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

User:Mohamed CJ. Is it possible that you could provide interpretive quotations from the sources that support the hook line? This might get us past the roadblock? 7&6=thirteen (☎) 12:38, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Absolutely. Please note that the source I used to support the hook is an offline one and that the url linked is to a forum. The reason is that Al-Waqt newspaper is now defunct and their website is down. I can e-mail a pdf copy by Sunday if there is any doubt. "القدر أو الصدفة التاريخية هما من قررا أن يولد نادر في بيئة شيعية", "أنا من مواليد 1973 وتفتح الوعي الأول لدي في بداية الثمانينات على وقع الاندفاعة الكاسحة لجيل الثورة الإسلامية والصحوة الإسلامية والمد الإسلامي بالذات في القرى الشيعية", "من حيث البدء أرفض تصنيفي بأني مثقف جماعة معينة", "البعض يقرأ نادر كاظم على أنه ذو خلفية ثقافية تنتمي إلى التيار الإسلامي وبالتحديد الشيعي، واعذرني لاستخدام هذه المصطلحات التي لا أحبذها ولكني كما قلت أريد قراءتك من خلال الآخرين وتقييمهم لك. البعض يرى انك الابن البار لهذا التيار أو هذه الجماعة، الذي يحفظ هويتها الأيديولوجية ويعمل من خلال ما يملك من أدوات علمية على ترسيخ مفاهيمها؟ ـ هذا الكلام فيه تصنيف قاسٍ وظالم، كما يحمل اتهامات حادة، ويسعى إلى تصنيفي ضمن خانة ضيّقة لا أجد نفسي فيها". Mohamed CJ (talk) 17:31, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

User:Mohamed CJ, As-salamu alaykum (السلام عليكم) Now tell us as an interpreter — not a translator — exactly what it means. A translation is basically a rote conversion word-by-word like an Arabic–Engllish dictionary. An interpretation is a statement as to the meaning, and can take into account such things as local knowledge, assumptions and idioms. Please don't take this wrong. In court where I work interpreters are supposed to be certified for their skills. I am not belittling you, or assuming you don't know the difference. Rather, I am just trying to get this to the point where I can say we have an interpretation from a valid interpreter, and because I WP:AGF, I would rely upon it. I just want you to understand what I am requiring. In court, for example, they sometimes administer an oath to a language interpreter, saying "Do you solemnly swear (or affirm) that you will faithfully and correctly interpret the statements from Arabic to English" or something to that effect. Just wanted you to know the mission, the method and the destination. Hope that helps. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 17:46, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

The source is basically an interview conducted by Al-Waqt newspaper. The important points, which the hook is part of are summarized in the second paragraph of "Early life and career" section. The first quotation I listed above is for Kadhim where he stated that he was born into a Shia family (or environment) due to a historical accident. The second quotation is also for him stating that he was influenced in 1980s by the Islamic revolution and Islamic revival. The third quotation is also for Kadhim in which he stated that he refused to be classified into an intellectual of a specific group. The forth quotation is a question followed by Kadhim's answer. The question is unrelated, but it mentioned that some people classify Kadhim as a member of the Islamist movement, and specifically Shia Islamist. In his answer Kadhim stated that this classification was unfair and that he objected to it. I hope this was clear. Mohamed CJ (talk) 22:05, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

• QPQ Verified. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 18:23, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
• Review Long enough. New enough. Seemingly amply sourced. As indicated, I can't speak or read the language, so I cannot personally vouch for the accuracy of the hook, or check for copyright violations. Nevertheless, this is not unlike having offline sources,and we now have a credible interpretation of the articles. I believe that we should WP:AGF. As to the "hookiness" of the line, it may not be very sexy, but based on the article it is about as good as we can get. In any event, his religious affiliation is interesting, and may be of considerable import and (apparently) is controversial, depending upon where you are from and what your viewpoint is. That is largely in the eye of the beholder. A stream can't rise higher than its source. Thanks for your help. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 22:18, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
• We have had too many problems in the past of articles backed exclusively by FL sources and people writing sub-standard text based on these, with consequential embarrassment to DYK and to WP. With all due respect to Mohamed CJ and 7&6=thirteen, assuming of good faith on such articles is a high risk course of action that I would not endorse. -- Ohc ^¡digame! 03:22, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

• I will shortly expand the article to high C/low B class (its size will probably double), but still only using Arabic sources. Would that make things better? Mohamed CJ (talk) 03:39, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

• I thought the sources I had were about the author, but they turned out to be about his books only. My question remains though. Would improving the article with FL sources make you change your mind? Mohamed CJ (talk) 04:01, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

• I understand your reservation. Foreign language only sources are a red flag. I did not try "google translate" however. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 12:59, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

On hold while sourcing questions are addressed. --ThaddeusB (talk) 03:32, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

• We have a review for the hook by an Arabic reader. See: [1]. Mohamed CJ (talk) 04:43, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

• Ping: Ohconfucius ThaddeusB. Mohamed CJ (talk) 17:02, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

• I have left a request on the message boards of three Arabic Wikiprojects. Hopefully, someone will step forward. -- Ohc ^¡digame! 01:28, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

• I don't see why we need this in spite of getting a confirmation by an Arabic reader (I've notified 3 users from Category:User ar-N and one of them replied to my talk page). Anyway, for anyone wishing to review the hook, this is the source supporting it. Mohamed CJ (talk) 03:03, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

• Until we get the response here, I'm concurring with the other reviewers. We need confirmation that this is correct. We aren't under a deadline, so we can take our time to be sure. Hasteur (talk) 18:16, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

• The discussion as to whether Arabic citations (whether offline or not, and whether translated by an Arabic speaker or not), as opposed to offline citations and citations in any other language, is a well-intentioned but political distraction that does not belong here. I am accepting the citation for the hook AGF, because that is in line with being objective and having respect for the author/editor/creator of the article, and with the DYK policy that I am used to. This is a full review from scratch. The article is new enough (for 2 April) and long enough. QPQ OK. No problem with disambigs. All external links are OK, except that the Facebook link in the infobox is flagged as a dead link. It works OK though. The image for the hook is free, and it appears in the article. I have not found any plagiarisms. The tone of the article is neutral and objective, which is what we are looking for in a biography. Good to go. --Storye book (talk) 10:25, 1 June 2014 (UTC)