Template:Did you know nominations/Jeong Duwon

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: rejected by BlueMoonset (talk) 00:29, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
No response from nominator in over a month despite ping and talk-page notice. Closing as unsuccessful.

Jeong Duwon

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A Jesuit map of the world in Chinese

• ... that João Rodrigues's gifts to Jeong Duwon have been credited with introducing Korea to Western science and culture?
  • ALT1:... that, upon his introduction to Western science and culture, the Korean diplomat Jeong Duwon was most impressed by the military applications of the telescope?
  • ALT2:... that Jeong Duwon was able to introduce the telescope to Korea because Portuguese artillerists were training the Ming army in the port city of Dengzhou?
  • ALT3:... that the firearm(s) Jeong Duwon received as a gift from Rodrigues Tçuzu have been variously described as a cannon, a fieldgun, a musket, and a pair of pistols?
  • ALT4:... that, upon their introduction to Western geography, the Korean diplomats Jeong Duwon and Yi Yeonghu were most curious with whether or not China was actually the center of the world?

• Reviewed: Will do "Lofty" Chiltern
• Comment: @Reviewers: Don't worry. You only need to review the hook(s) most interesting to you.

Created by LlywelynII (talk). Self-nominated at 06:09, 25 May 2017 (UTC).

• I think the punchiest might be a shortened version of ALT2:

ALT2a: ... that Jeong Duwon was able to introduce the telescope to Korea because of Portuguese artillerists on his route to Beijing? —Patrug (talk) 17:56, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

• Well, they weren't "nearby" in any sense but your ALT works with a little modification. [Fix'd.] That said, I personally find the context (Portuguese training the Ming) more interesting and important than the punchiness or bare fact (Korea got telescopes from Europeans we already know invented them first). — LlywelynII 23:47, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

• @LlywelynII: Interesting article and hook. Long enough, new enough, within policy re. copyright & neutrality. Hook alt2a is interesting, but reading the article & source, the telescope was the gift from Rodrigues, not from the artillerist. Can you update the hook accordingly? The image does not have much to do with the hook so the promoter can drop it. QPQ is in order. HaEr48 (talk) 01:38, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
  
  Oh another thing. The lead is too light, please introduce what's notable about the subject, e.g. the introduction of Western science in Korea. HaEr48 (talk) 01:47, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

• Thank you. I agree that ALT2a isn't the best; it was just less wrong than some of Patrug's other suggested hooks elsewhere and I left it for the reviewer to think about. Struck. My hook 2 already accurately describes the situation, and I think the artillerists as a group are more interesting to the readers than just throwing out Rodrigues's name. He actually is more interesting but they mostly won't know that. The image fits ALT4 but, yeah, should be dropped or replaced if you prefer the telescope angle. — LlywelynII 12:24, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
  
  The lead is light because I can't go into much detail on the guy's life. The western sources only touch on his relations with the Westerners in China but, from what I can gather from the Korean page, he was principally an official of the Joseon state. I'll add a sentence but, as you mentioned, the article is within policy and things like {{expand lead}} really belong on its talk page and shouldn't hold up the DYK process. — LlywelynII 12:34, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

Thank you. If you want to mention Rodrigues, probably you can refer to him as a Jesuit interpreter or something like that. But it's up to you, ALT2 is fine with me too. The lead update is fine by me. HaEr48 (talk) 06:52, 17 June 2017 (UTC)

I cannot promote this because ALT2 contains too many facts not backed up by the article. These include that the Portuguese were doing the training, that it was the Ming army being trained and that this happened in Dengzhou, and even that the gift was associated with the training. LlywelynII may think all this is obvious, but it needs to be properly included in the article if this hook is to be used. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 05:47, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

@Cwmhiraeth: thanks for double checking. "China" under this period was ruled by the Ming dynasty, and Sun was a Ming governor, so I think it's reasonable to infer that the troops being trained there was Ming troops. I tweaked the article a bit to clarify this. Also, Dengzhou is supported, "Jeong stopped at Dengzhou [...] there, he met. ...". You're right about the "Portuguese" part. The article doesn't say whether the trainers were portuguese, or just the leader Correa. Will let LlywelynII clarify this. HaEr48 (talk) 04:47, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

@LlywelynII: This nomination is stuck and awaiting your input. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 05:26, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

• It's been a month since Cwmhiraeth's ping and more than 2 weeks since an additional notice on the nominator's talk page. Closing as unsuccessful. Yoninah (talk) 13:41, 7 August 2017 (UTC)