- The following discussion is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by Gatoclass (talk) 13:17, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
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Hu Yepin edit
- ... that writer Hu Yepin (pictured) was arrested by the British police and executed by the Chinese government for his Communist activities?
- Reviewed: Zombie Hunter (film)
Moved to mainspace by Zanhe (talk). Self nominated at 09:01, 3 December 2013 (UTC).
This interesting new article meets all other criteria, but statements in the hook paragraph in the article itself (On 17 January 1931, while attending a secret Communist Party meeting at the Oriental Hotel in the British concession of Shanghai, Hu Yepin was arrested along with other attendees by the British police. They were handed over to the Kuomintang government and held in prison for three weeks) don't appear to be covered in the cited source. For example the cited source doesn't state that the British police handed them over to the Kuomintang, although one could infer that, or that they were imprisoned for three weeks. Also, the cited source has this statement: Until very recently, there was controversy over the circumstances as well as the causes of their arrest, which renders the situation somewhat murky. Could you come up with an alternate hook, perhaps involving Hu Yepin's two name changes, or his interesting writing career? NinaGreen (talk) 15:50, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks for your suggestions. I've expanded the article with more information about the events after his arrest, including a source that explicitly says he was transferred by the British to the Kuomintang.
- If you read further down the source (Wong 1991), the former controversy was mainly about how the British learned about the secret meeting (and it is now generally agreed that they were betrayed by a rival Communist faction), which is outside the scope of this article. The fact that he was arrested by the British police and executed by the Kuomintang government, which is more pertinent to this article and the DYK nomination, is not disputed. -Zanhe (talk) 01:31, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
- Wikipedia has to present a neutral POV, which in this case means revealing in the article itself the abundant evidence (see pp. 101, 104-5 of the cited source; unfortunately pp. 102-3 are not available for viewing) which establishes that Hu Yepin and the other 'Five Martyrs', as well as others present at the meeting, were betrayed to the Chinese Kuomintang government (GMD) by their fellow Communists (referred to in the cited source as 'traitors' within the Communist party, i.e. the rival Communist faction you mention above). Presenting a neutral POV also means revealing in the article the statement in the cited source (p. 101) that there was an order by the Kuomintang to arrest members of the Left League to which Hu Yepin belonged; otherwise, the British police appear in the article to have been acting on their own initiative without any legal authority (since Shanghai was a British concession in China, it seems that the British police might have had no choice but to carry out arrests ordered by the Kuomintang). I think the issue can be easily resolved by adding this material to the article. (As an aside, that five Communists martyrs became martyrs because of betrayal by their fellow Communists seems sufficiently ironic to merit consideration as a hook.) NinaGreen (talk) 20:23, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
- Sorry but your assumption is wrong. The British concession was sovereign British territory not subject to Chinese law, which is why they had their own police. For some background, please see here. The Chinese government had no right to order the British to do anything in the concession area. When referring to the transfer of the communists from the British to the Kuomintang, the Chinese source cited in the article uses the word "extradition". -Zanhe (talk) 20:57, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
- It's an interesting side issue. But the principal issue is that Wikipedia articles must present a neutral POV, and that means that the fact that the Kuomintang had ordered the arrest of members of the Left League to which Hu Yepin belonged, and that there is abundant evidence in the cited RS that Yepin and the others were betrayed by a rival Communist faction, can't be omitted from the article. To put it in simplistic terms, the article can't present the British police and the Kuomintang as the only 'bad guys' responsible for the death of Hu Yepin by omitting any mention of the 'bad guys' who were ultimately responsible for his death, i.e. the rival Communist faction which informed the authorities of the meeting, thus enabling the arrests to take place. If the rival Communist faction hadn't informed on Hu Yepin, he wouldn't have been arrested and shot. Equally, the article can't present the British as though they were acting entirely on their own initiative, by failing to mention that the Kuomintang had ordered the arrests of Hu Yepin and other members of the Left League. If the British were unaware of the Kuomintang orders for the arrest of members of the Left League, why would the British have turned them over to the Kuomintang once they had arrested them? That's what any Wikipedia reader would want to know. The article doesn't have to go into detail on the point, but the fact of the arrest orders has to be mentioned because otherwise the actions of the British don't make sense. What were the British arresting them for? NinaGreen (talk) 21:41, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
- Again, the Kuomintang could not have "ordered" the arrest of the communists in the British concession, but somehow persuaded the British to arrest them and extradite them to the KMT. How it happened is not mentioned in any source and probably unknowable, but it's not surprising as the British were no friends of the communists. How about:
- ALT1... that writer Hu Yepin (pictured) was betrayed by rival communists, arrested by the British police, and executed by the Chinese government? -Zanhe (talk) 21:55, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
- ALT1 looks good. The pertinent material about the betrayal and the GMD arrest orders just needs to be added to the article. I agree with you that there's much that's ultimately unknowable about the political machinations between the British and the Kuomintang concerning this matter, but the cited RS states specifically (p.101) that the GMD had ordered the arrest of members of the Left League, and the RS connects those orders directly to the shooting of Hu Yepin and his four co-martyrs (There was no way for the GMD police to ‘close down’ the League. It had no definite premises...However the order to arrest members was carried out efficiently. On 9 October 1930...Then on 7 February 1931, the so-called ’Five martyrs of the Left League’ were executed at Longhua, Shanghai.). NinaGreen (talk) 22:22, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
