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Template:Did you know nominations/Al-Yamani (Shiism)

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Allen3 talk 20:39, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

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Al-Yamani (Shiism) edit

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5x expanded by Saff V. (talk). Self-nominated at 11:51, 15 September 2015 (UTC).

  • : The prose is large enough, well referenced and expanded fivefold within the legal time. The hook is interesting and exists in the Ref coming immediately after the hook. No Copyvio was detected. However there are some slight POV issues in the article which should be fixed before going on. As an example, Imam Mahdi should be changed to Mohammad al-Mahdi (this was just an example). Mhhossein (talk) 04:53, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment: I went ahead and copy edited the article, but the hook still needs editing. I think the original hook was talking about one of the signs that is supposed to occur before Al-Yamani's appearance, but it might just be easier to use this alternative hook:
  • ALT1 ... that in Shia tradition, the earth will swallow a group of people before al-Yamani appears? ALT1 ... that in Shia tradition, before Muhammad al-Mahdi reappears, al-Yamani will appear and the earth will swallow a group of people?
Let me know what you think. Best, -- Notecardforfree (talk) 10:00, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment@Notecardforfree: Thanks for your copy edit. I think that there is one problem for you. The article is about Al-Yamani appearance before Muhammad al-Mahdi's reappearance. According to the sources, there is five signs for Muhammad al-Mahdi's reappearance and these signs will occur before Muhammad al-Mahdi's appearance. These signs include: 1. the appearance of Sufyani 2. the appearance of Yamani 3.the loud cry in the sky 4.the murder of Nafs-e-Zakiyyah 5. the earth swallowing a group of people in the land of Beyda. Therefore, the earth will swallow a group of people before al-Yamani appears is false because the earth swallowing is one of the Muhammad al-Mahdi's reappearance sign.Saff V. (talk) 11:19, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
Saff V., thanks for catching that -- definitely a silly mistake on my part. I have updated ALT1 per your suggestion, but feel free to change it again if you still think it is problematic. Best, -- Notecardforfree (talk) 11:33, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
  • @Notecardforfree:The new ALT1 has one problem again. Because in the Hadith by Muhammad al-Baqir and Ali al-Ridha, stated that the appearance of Sufyani, Yamani and Khorasani will take place in one year, one month and one day (at the same time), they will take place as a series of events that are all connected by one string. But in none of sources, I can not find the earth will swallow a group of people before or at the same time al-Yamani appears. Therefore, I think that the ALT1 is wrong again.Saff V. (talk) 12:00, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
Okay then, what about this hook:
  • ALT2 ... that according to Shia theology, after al-Yamani appears, the earth will swallow a group of people?
Thanks for your help and patience with this. As you can probably tell, I'm not well-versed in Shia theology, and I appreciate your guidance in this matter. Best, -- Notecardforfree (talk) 17:24, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
@Notecardforfree: We must suggest hook according to sources and hook must be inline citation. Unfortunately, the ALT2 is wrong and is not according to references. I think that the main hook is good. What's your idea Mhhossein? Saff V. (talk) 07:41, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
I already agreed with the the original hook, which is well supported by the Ref. Mhhossein (talk) 12:46, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
My concern is that the original hook doesn't make sense grammatically. I am totally fine with using the original hook, but it needs to be edited so that readers can understand what you are trying to say. I suggested the alternate hooks so that we could have a grammatically correct alternative; I was just trying to do my best with the information that is in the article. I have struck ALT2, per your guidance. But I do have one question: if you can't find sources that say the Earth will swallow people before or at the same time Yamani appears, doesn't that necessarily mean the "swallowing of people" will happen after Yamani's appearance? -- Notecardforfree (talk) 14:45, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
Notecardforfree Nobody know about the time of Muhammad al-Mahdi's reappearance signs but in some sources explain Yamani, Sufyani , Khorasani will occur at the same time. References narrate that "swallowing of people" is one of the certain sign of Muhammad al-Mahdi's reappearance and there is not relation between Yamani and swallowing of people. Please read this article.Saff V. (talk) 15:13, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
What about this one:
  • ... that according to Shia beliefs al-Yamani who is the ruler of Yemen and invites the people to right and truth is one of the sings occurring prior to Muhammad al-Mahdi's appearance?

If there's a problem with grammar then suggest a Copy-edit. Mhhossein (talk) 17:41, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

Mhhossein, the hook you suggested above is still not grammatically correct. I think you are confusing the word "sign" with "sing", but the sentence structure stills needs some work. What about this:
Let me know what you think. Best, -- Notecardforfree (talk) 18:40, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
Oh! I should have paid attention to "sign" and thanks Notecardforfree for reminding that. Anyway, I think Notecardforfree's suggestion is good only I'm doubtful about using "theology" here. What about "prophecy"? Mhhossein (talk) 04:19, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
Mhhossein, I think the word "prophecy" could work here. How does this sound:
I think you could also potentially use the words "tradition" or "belief" in place of "prophecy" if you think either of those words work better here. -- Notecardforfree (talk) 06:11, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
Notecardforfree: So, we'd better use belief instead of prophecy. Mhhossein (talk) 06:20, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
Mhhossein, I will defer to your good judgment about what word works best here. If I had to choose, I would use the existing language in either ALT3 or ALT4. The word "prophecy" is a more specific descriptor, while the word "theology" implies that the reappearance of Muhammad al-Mahdi is part of a larger belief-set. -- Notecardforfree (talk) 06:30, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
Mhhossein and Notecardforfree My suggestion is: ALT5 ... that according to a Shia belief, the appearance of al-Yamani, who is the ruler of Yeman, is one of the signs of the reappearance of Muhammad al-Mahdi? Also, belief is a common word in this subject.Saff V. (talk) 06:36, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
Saff V., I think the problem with ALT5 is that Al-Yamani is not, at the moment, the ruler of Yemen. How about this:
I think the precise word you ultimately choose is less important than having a hook that is (1) grammatically correct and (2) an accurate representation of facts presented in the article. -- Notecardforfree (talk) 06:56, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

Notecardforfree According to the hook source, Al-Yamani will appear from Yemen and is ruler of Yemen. I think that the hook without Yamani description is incorrect and vague while is grammatically correct. What's your idea Mhhossein.Saff V. (talk) 07:09, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

Notecardforfree: I think Saff V. is trying to say that he will be the ruler of Yemen at that time. I suggest to have it included. Mhhossein (talk) 07:35, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
Yes, I am agree with you.Saff V. (talk) 07:37, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
Saff V. and Mhhossein, what do you think about this:
If some Shia Muslims do not believe Muhammad al-Mahdi will reappear, then it may be more appropriate to say " ... that some Shia Muslims believe ... " (rather than the implication that all Shia Muslims believe Muhammad al-Mahdi will reappear). -- Notecardforfree (talk) 08:26, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
Notecardforfree:Every thing is alright except that you used "appear" for Al-yamani, as if he is alive now but hidden! Could it be changed? Btw, thanks you! Mhhossein (talk) 17:55, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
Mhhossein, I don't think the word "appear" implies that al-Yamani is alive at the moment. It simply means that he will arrive at a later time (also, the article for al-Yamani and the article for the signs of the reappearance of Muhammad al-Mahdi both use the word "appear" in reference to al-Yamani). However, if you feel strongly about the word "appear," I would suggest changing it to "emerge" or "arise." -- Notecardforfree (talk) 18:24, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
Notecardforfree: " I will defer to your good judgment about what word works best here." I have no strong feeling about it and it just appeared to me that way. It's used in the article in a similar manner as you said! Mhhossein (talk) 18:38, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
  • : Every thing is good, and no QPQ is required here. Let's go by ALT7! Mhhossein (talk) 18:42, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
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