Talk:William Herschel/Archive 6

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Named after Herschel

The links to Herschel Girls School, Cape Town and to the lunar craters J. Herschel and C. Herschel are not named after William Herschel, and so are not really relevant on this page.TristramBrelstaff (talk) 17:48, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Jewish?

Was he Jew? If yes why not in the article body, only in categories?--79.111.93.176 (talk) 14:47, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

The Herschel Chronicle, a biography of William Herschel, seems to indicate he was not Jewish. I would be open to a better source, but for now I have removed the categories. Thanks, --TeaDrinker (talk) 17:18, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

His father, Isaac Herschel, was Jewish, but his mother was not.User:JewsDidUranus —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.79.105.102 (talk) 16:21, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Complete nonsense about Herschel's name and nationality

I was shocked, reading this complete nonsense about Herschel's nationality and origin of his name. Somehow, this is comparable to the "discussion" about the nationality of Nikolaus Koppernikkel.

Koppernikkel who latinized his name to Nicolaus Copernicus - such a latinization was common among scholars in those days - is stressed to have been a Pole since mid 19th century by all kinds of Polish nationalists and chauvinists, just because he had been born in Krakau, Poland. But the city and university of Krakau had been founded by Germans, which were called to Poland in large numbers from the 10th century onwards. City and university were entirely German until the 15th century and various national rights were granted to German villages and cities in Poland. This changed during the 15th century when massive and systematic polonization of Germans and other nationalities set in. But even today the family names of many Poles can easily be recognized as of German origin (Miller, Beck, Moller, Tusk, ..)

But back now to Herschel. He did not change his nationality. He had always been German. But as the article states "At the time, the crowns of England and Hannover were united under George II." we have the rather curious case, that for a certain period in history German nationals (people of a certain part of Germany) were British nationals at the same time! This fact also had been the reason for his regiment to be ordered to England. Thus Herschel didn't change his nationality when taking residency in England. Maybe he can be called bi-national, but I think that most editors would agree that his real nationality is German and that the point "citizenship" is just another attempt to make him English "through the backdoor", so to call. Another thing in those days is taking permanent residency in a certain town. I suppose this was only possible with the city of Slough's explicit permission, but such a permission would certainly have been also necessary for someone who -for example- moved from London to Slough.

Herschel also never changed or "anglicised" his name. His name was Friedrich Wilhelm. The english equivalents for Friedrich and Wilhelm are Frederick and William. As the English are a bit of notorious ignorants towards other languages (maybe some of you can agree on that), Herschel most propably therefore used the english equivalents instead of his original german name from some point on. Another explanation would be, that the english equivalents were used by the english society surrounding him and from some day on was also used by Herschel himself. But during his several stays back home in Hannover, he definitely introduced and named himself as Friedrich Wilhelm and not as William Frederick. (I have never heard of large numbers of English or American persons assimilate their first name or even family name, when moving to another country. But if it's the other way around, the English and Americans seem to expect it, at least they did so strongly in the past.)

The article also claims that Herschel is of full or at least partial Jewish descendance. Lots of space is given to that claim, although it is only a thesis and the article's editor himself doesn't seem to be entirely sure about his own claim. I think, if this editor (or book author) has definite prove for the claim that Herschels father was Jewish or even a practising Jew, he or she should cite its source a little bit more detailed. Otherwise it can only be regarded as a unproven claim, which should not be part of this article or at least not in this extensive way. Biblical names like Abraham and Isaak were also common among ordinary Germans in those days. I don't know if it is true, that Moritzen was "a typical alternative Jewish name for 'son of Moses', often used by assimilated Jews at the time." (By the way: What is -if there is any- the original hebrew name for son of Moses?) What I can tell is that Moritz is a common family name in Germany (english: Maurice or Morris). The North German version of this family name is Moritzen (Moritz-sen), meaning son of Moritz, like for example Hansen (Hans-sen) means son of Hans. I really don't know how someone can argue that Moritzen means son of Moses!?

Ok, that's my comments. Based on these comments I will do some changes in the article and I hope not too much people will disagree with it. (Some always do, anyway) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.157.57.54 (talk) 17:48, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

"Shocked", yeah, yeah, yeah! This lame nationality stuff again! Copernicus isn't to be discussed here, discuss that on that Talk:Nicolaus Copernicus page! (Besides Talk:Copernicus is listed on Wikipedia:Lamest edit wars). For opening paragraphs refer to MoS (biographies). If he is German as you say, then find some citations for it, and then it will be accepted, unless there are more sources claiming he was English. Secondly, go get yourself a user account, so we can see who you are. ... said: Rursus (^mbork³) 15:13, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Another observation (sorry for risking this page becoming another lame nationality discussion, but facts are facts): Herschel was from Hanover. Strictly Herschel was Hanoveran. In 1738 there was nothing such as a German citizenship, since Germany was an empire conglomerated from dukedoms and other semi-independent states. The reason for Herschel not changing citizenship to English is that Hanover provided the British United Kingdom with kings (if that term was anything like correct), is that he formally already was citizen of the United Kingdom by birth, and didn't need to (see Province of Hanover!). Since MoS (biographies) tell us that

Ethnicity or sexuality should generally not be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability.

W. Herschel's German-ness should not be written as it is in the intro. So the above comment by Sir 84.157.57.54 is invalid and incorrect according to MoS (biographies). Secondly someone made an improper change of the nationality here. Could anyone please correct the "nationality" of Herschel back to either "German-born English astronomer" (a nice compromize that will find a lot of supporting citations), or to a Hanoveran astronomer, or some such. That he was German is incorrect and disregarding MoS (bio).

(Just a note: I'm neither German nor English. I'm instead consider claiming to be Wikipedian). ... said: Rursus (^mbork³) 15:46, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Sorry couldn't await comments because of an irrational subconscious urge... if you dislike my changes to Hanoverian, then please revert or fix it! ... said: Rursus (^mbork³) 16:13, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

More! jewishencyclopedia.com claim that he was of Jewish descent. Now, the article doesn't mention "Jew" at all, despite the fact that it is very simple to find sources for this. What kind of sloppy edit was this one!? An anonymous sir X.Y.Z.T coming here raving about nationality, Jews, German and whatever and then important information is removed from the article? This is not a responsible kind of attitude to the information collection and authoring that a lot of previous editors have made. Cases such as this makes me think that anonymous edits should be disallowed on Wikipedia. ... said: Rursus (^mbork³) 16:12, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Reinserted. With ref! ... said: Rursus (^mbork³) 16:26, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Revamp

Judging by some of the past arguments I believe that this page could use a fresh eye. Since Uranus is getting a lot of attention by WikiProject Solar System I feel that this page should be updated as well for obvious reasons. It seems the debate has been 'resolved'. There doesn't seem to be anything wrong with the article... except for the grammar. I have began copy editing and re-wording the first few paragraphs of the article and will grab a bunch of books from the library. We'll get this article sourced and definite in no time. Any help is welcome SkarmCA (talk) 18:05, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Be blessed. I hate this nationality stuff. If someone restores to what citable sources tend to say, I won't object. ... said: Rursus (^mbork³) 19:06, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

I checked the grammar and found it OK if I inserted a few commas. The subclausing is linear, and so very easy to read. I'll take a look back in history to see if something essential and citable is missing, which I doubt. ... said: Rursus (^mbork³) 19:30, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

As far as I can see nothing of important was removed, except the above nationality/ethnicity stuff. However, one thing is actually missing, whether deemed to be less important or not, namely the "star soundings" (if that was the proper term) where he actually made a cross section of the Milky Way, however erroneous, based on the assumptions that lack of knowledge forced him to. In my opinion it was pioneering the modern kind of mass investigations, followed by f.ex. Jacobus Kapteyn's and Harlow Shapley's Milky Way cross sections. ... said: Rursus (^mbork³) 19:48, 26 November 2009 (UTC)