Talk:What Separates Me from You/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: ScoobyHugh (talk · contribs) 21:24, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

• Hey, I'm happy to take this review on. It may well take me a few days to finish my review, but don't worry, I am working on it! ScoobyHugh (talk) 21:24, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for taking this one! Just so you know, I'll be bouncing between this review and the one for Homesick. Best, yeepsi (Talk tonight) 21:44, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

No problem, I did notice that Homesick was under review but decided to review this anyway... hopefully it isn't too much work! ScoobyHugh (talk) 10:57, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

I've just finished my first quick read of the article. I don't see any reason to fail it immediately, but I do think a fair few things need fixing before it reaches GA standard, particularly grammar issues. I'll post a detailed review sometime soon. ScoobyHugh (talk) 11:21, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Full review

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

One general comment is that I feel the layout of the article could be improved. For example, under 'Release' there could be a sub-section titled 'Touring' (which could possibly be expanded? Playing Warped Tour, Soundwave Festival could be worth a brief mention if they played any songs off the album there. Although this won't affect the outcome of the review.). 'Background, music and lyrics' could also do with being split up into sub-sections for example. Information about the singles from the article could also do with their own sub-section for example. At the moment, I feel the article jumps from one theme to another too much.

I've split it up along the lines of OK Computer#Music and lyrics. Best, yeepsi (Talk tonight) 20:51, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose, no copyvios, spelling and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

   (I've tried to be careful and not point out American spellings of words as 'wrong' - however, if I've made a mistake and altered something which was correct, do let me know!) Quite a few changes needed here, although I'll go through and correct some very minor issues myself:

   • "All of the songs for What Separates Me from You were written while the band was touring for the past year and a half" - the bit in bold needs to be a specific time-period (from the source, it seems to be 2009-10?)
   • "as early as March 2010, vocalist Jeremy McKinnon stated that A Day to Remember already had "all of the pop/punk song ideas written"" - it's worth mentioning that they still had to write the heavier songs for the album, as the above sentence makes it sound like the entire album was already written.
   • Rather than having sentences lead into long quotes, I feel the article would be more clear if you used something like: In an interview with Alter the Press!, guitarist Neil Westfall explained: "We've written a few jams, ..." There are a number of occasions in the article that this could be used. To save space I won't list them all, I'll let you work through and do what you think is appropiate.
   • On the other hand, the technique works well here as the quotes are short: McKinnon called the pace of writing as "really fast",[2] and the songs themselves as "pop-punk but with a darker edge" (although 'described' would be better than 'called')
   • " fifteen sixteen song ideas" - a quote isn't really necessary for something like that, I feel
   • "Calling What Separates Me from You "the slowest for stuff like that", when referring to song titles" - doesn't really make grammatical sense, perhaps 'He called' instead of 'calling'?
   • "Asked whether What Separates Me from You "was definitely the next step" for the band." - I'm not really sure what you were trying to say here?
   • ""It's Complicated" was written while the band were abroad in Amsterdam, and had different lyrics" - clarification needed here; different lyrics from what?
   • "The band tried to record the song that night, after Andrew Wade flew out to the band." - again, some clarification needed - what night?
   • I think it should be 're-written' instead of 're-wrote'?
   • "A piece of melody for the song came from a recording session for Homesick when Wade said he had an idea, which McKinnon took a while to re-write" - could you maybe clarify this?
   • "When the pair "had all of the song ideas, we took them on full-band".[6] Pre-production had been undertaken in, as Skaff commented, "a make-shift studio"[4] by Andrew Wade, as Woodard commented, "we've been going in from 11am until 9pm and all we do is sit around and play." - a bit long, could do with being 2 seperate sentences.
   • "Woodard said "crazy things were happening – verses became choruses and stuff" - and stuff is unnecessary here
   • "which McKinnon said wasn't the true track list, then proceeded to post the actual track list[32] on October 14.[33]" - probably better as a stand-alone sentence.
   • "On January 6, 2011, the band released the music video for single "All I Want," which features members from numerous famous and popular musical groups,[44] which was filmed back in October 2010." - again a bit too long for a single sentence.

    Done all above. Best, yeepsi (Talk tonight) 18:57, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

   • " A promo CD of "This Is the House That Doubt Built"" - what's the difference between a single and a promo CD? I think this needs to be explained.

   A promotional CD is for a song (or two) that would be used for promotional purposes to promote the album and band, not available to the commercial masses. While a single is released commercially. Best, yeepsi (Talk tonight) 18:57, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

   Ok, can an explanation go into the article? ScoobyHugh (talk) 16:34, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

   I think it's too generic, as a lot of albums have promos from them, to include in this one. Best, yeepsi (Talk tonight) 14:05, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

   • You may be better off including the year when naming dates as the events in this article span a 3 year period.

   I've added the year, where possible, near the beginning of each paragraph. This should clear any confuse as to which year each paragraph is chronologically set in. Best, yeepsi (Talk tonight) 15:47, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

   For 1b:

   • I've already mentioned that relative time reference 'for the past year and a half' needs to be cleared up and that the 'Background...' section might be a bit long
   • But otherwise, good.

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (reference section): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

   • 2a is almost done - footnotes 3 and 4 need a more detailed explanation. I think I understand 4, but it still needs to be clearer. I have no idea at all what footnote 3 is supposed to mean so that really needs more explanation.

    Done footnote 4. Footnote 3 is the catalog number of the release. (Similar to The Division Bell#References).

   Good job on 4. Would it not be better to format footnote 3 as such: "Catalog number: U.S. Victory VR603" so that it's clear to the reader what it means? ScoobyHugh (talk) 16:34, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

    Done Best, yeepsi (Talk tonight) 14:05, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

   • 2b - you've provided references for all quotations, which is great, but there are a couple of times where the quotations are slightly wrong, which alters their meaning, or they don't support the point you're making, i.e.:

   • McKinnon called the pace of writing as "really fast" - but the whole quote says McKinnon the pace of writing seems fast, but they'd actually been working on it the entire time.
   • the songs themselves as "pop-punk but with a darker edge" - actual quote was "“I think the pop-punk stuff has a darker edge to it. I wrote it like that, it’s still pop-punk but with a darker edge" He wrote 5 pop-punk and 5 heavier songs for the album didn't he? So he's only saying that the pop-punk songs have a darker edge, not all the songs; a subtle difference.
   • McKinnon said the song is a "more personal song" - in text, "one of the more personal songs for me"
   • I'm not sure the quotes from this video [1] have been transcribed exactly
   • McKinnon later said in an interview that the album's cover was meaning "to be a little more serious. It has the vibe of a painting." - I can't find the quote in the reference given

    Done all above. Best, yeepsi (Talk tonight) 14:05, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

   • A reference is needed for this: Director of the video, Drew Russ, commented on his Twitter saying that "filming had been wrapped up" but he "doesn't know a specific date that the video will be released" but he proclaimed "it is the craziest video he has ever made"

   Couldn't find a ref, removed. Best, yeepsi (Talk tonight) 14:05, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

   • For Reference 21, Alternative Press issue 295, is the info to be found on page 57?

   Yep, page 57. It's down to the formatting of the cite journal which doesn't have p. before the page number for some unknown reason. Best, yeepsi (Talk tonight) 14:05, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

   • The ADTR blog announcing the real track listing was posted on Oct. 13, not the 14th?
   • The reference for the album being originally planned for release on Oct. 26 doesn't seem to give a specific date, just saying 'Oct. 2010'. Can you find a reference for this?

    Done Best, yeepsi (Talk tonight) 14:05, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

   For 2c:

   • I've already covered some points which would fall under OR, i.e. McKinnon describing the pace of writing as really fast.
   • I have some issues with this sentence: Pre-production had been undertaken in, as Skaff commented, "a make-shift studio"[4] by Andrew Wade, as Woodard commented, "we've been going in from 11am until 9pm and all we do is sit around and play." - I'm not sure that the place they've been "going in" to is the make-shift studio mentioned.

   I think it's the same as both Skaff and Woodard are discussing pre-production in the sections the quotes are taken from. Best, yeepsi (Talk tonight) 15:03, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

   • I have similar issues with this sentence: Performing over half the album[49] live has "worked great", as McKinnon commented - this would be better as two distinct sentences. Something like: The band performed over half of the new album while on the Gamechangers tour. McKinnon commented: "The new songs live have worked great." A subtle difference I know, but I feel it avoids any unintended connotations.

    Done Best, yeepsi (Talk tonight) 15:03, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

   I unfortunately don't have access to reference 10, the YouTube commentary, so I'll have to look in to how I can check the quotes sourced to that.

   Another user has ripped it and uploaded it here [2] Best, yeepsi (Talk tonight) 15:03, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

   My only comments here would be: 1) any info on why the album release was delayed? 2) "Referring to "You Be Tails, I'll Be Sonic", Skaff was asked whether the band were fans of Sonic the Hedgehog series, to which Skaff replied "Yeah dude, Sega Genesis was the best back in the day"" - seems a little superfluous to me. Number 1 isn't a requirement for the article to pass, I just thought it would add to the article if it was included, and 2 is very easy to fix.

   Can't find anything any the delay, and removed the Sega part. Best, yeepsi (Talk tonight) 15:08, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

   Only 3 minor issues here:

   • 'As the band were getting better as songwriters' seems to be an opinion expressed as fact to me
   • Likewise for ' features members from numerous famous and popular musical groups' - probably best to just remove 'famous' and 'popular'

    Done Best, yeepsi (Talk tonight) 15:13, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

   • In the 'Reception' section there are 2 positive reviews from critics and 2 negative reviews. I feel this makes it look like critics were divided on their opinion of the album, when in actual fact most critics reviewed the album positively. Perhaps you could add a few more positive reviews?

    Done I've add a couple more. Best, yeepsi (Talk tonight) 16:31, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

   Almost all good here. In the infobox, I would perhaps say 'album artwork' instead of 'illustration' just to make sure it's clear. For the quote by Kevin Skaff in the 'Release' section, I think the entire quote needs to be in the box and then at the bottom it can just say: "Kevin Skaff, speaking in 2010". Would the quote also perhaps be better placed under the 'Lyrics' sub-section?

    Done I feel the box is more appropriate in the release section as the title and cover art for it were covered in the same section, and since the box is talking about the album title, it fits in. Best, yeepsi (Talk tonight) 20:18, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

   Fair enough, and thanks for the change you did make. ScoobyHugh (talk) 16:34, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

   There we go. I ended up making more comments than I initially anticipated, but hopefully they'll prove useful in improving the article. I'll put the article on hold for the standard one week period to give you a chance to make improvements, but I will also check back in the intervening period. Due to the number of changes that need to be made, I'll probably need to re-read the article again before deciding whether to pass it or not, even if all the changes I've noted are made. Good work on the article so far though! ScoobyHugh (talk) 19:58, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

   All the issues have been resolved. Best, yeepsi (Talk tonight) 16:31, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

   Ok, let me give the article another read-through to make sure everything is ok. ScoobyHugh (talk) 09:33, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

   • There's still a bit of an issue here: " All of the songs for What Separates Me from You were written while the band were touring in 2009,[5] and as early as March 2010, vocalist Jeremy McKinnon stated that A Day to Remember already had "all of the pop/punk song ideas written [...] And we're then going to write five heavier songs"" - All of the songs were written in 2009, but in 2010 half of them still had to be written? As I wrote in 1a point 1, I think they wrote the songs while on tour in 2009 and 2010.
   • I've edited the sentence about the speed of writing under 'Styles and amount of material'. In the edit summary I wrote "to remove OR" which I now realise was a mistake, my apologies for that, but I think the current sentence structure is better as we don't need to edit the quote.
   • After watching the track-by-track YouTube video (thanks for the alternative link by the way!) I didn't hear any mention of Sticks & Bricks being a codeword for a fight from the fans, just a fight in general. I guess it probably would be a fight between fans, but if the video doesn't explicity say that, it's probably best not to put that bit in.

    Done Best, yeepsi (Talk tonight) 11:12, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

   • Could you work on this a bit?: "A piece of the song came from a recording session for Homesick when Wade said he had an idea for the melody, which McKinnon took a while to write over." - from the video, I think McKinnon said Chad Gilbert had the idea? The quote was: "Chad had a cool idea, vocally, for something"

    Done Best, yeepsi (Talk tonight) 11:21, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

After reading through the article again, I am now happy for the article to pass. Well done, and thanks for the work you've put in. Regarding further improvements to the article, I would suggest expanding the background section (i.e. highlighting that the band said their sound wasn't going to change because of the line-up change) and there are still some instances were quotes could be incorporated into the text (see WP:QUOTE), but the article does, I feel, meet the GA criteria at it's current standard. Congrats again! ScoobyHugh (talk) 12:37, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the review! Best, yeepsi (Talk tonight) 12:38, 29 September 2013 (UTC)