Talk:Vivian (Paper Mario)/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: TarkusAB (talk · contribs) 00:04, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

• European localizers noted however that a game with references to trans people would be unlikely to get a 3+ rating by the Pan European Game Information ratings board, and as such changed such references to a genital reassignment surgery, which allowed for the flavor of the character to remain intact.
  • I'm a little confused by this sentence. The way it's written it sounds like the localizers were afraid the trans references jeopardized the game's 3+ rating, and so "changed" (you mean removed?) references to genital reassignment surgery, and this allowed "for the flavor of the character to remain intact." What is meant by that last piece? the "flavor of the character"? Was the character still transgender?
    • Cleaned it up to be a little clearer.
      • Being discussed below...
• Bustle's Vivian Nunez included Vivian in her list of "17 ways that Vivians are special."
  • I'm not familiar with Bustle or Vivian Nunez and if this is a reliable source, but regardless, the nature of this list seems too unrelated. A woman named Vivian writing about "17 ways that Vivians are special" just seems sorta silly and doesn't tell us anything about the character or why she is significant. Seems like she just looked up characters named Vivian and came up with a list (probably also why she arrived at an unorthodox number of 17). Unless any significance can be derived, I'd probably remove this.
    • That's a good point on its triviality, though I determined it was reliable based on their editorial policy which talks of editors going over articles to ensure accuracy: [1] - Bryn (talk) (contributions) 19:56, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
      •  Done
• Mashable was critical of the game for characters who exhibit transphobia towards her and praised her design
  • Were they really critical of the game, or just critical of those characters?
    • Removed source as I misunderstood it. I reckon it could be used as a source (that Mashable regarded it as one of Nintendo's queer memes), but I'm not sure. I'm going to try and get further input on that from some others.
      •  Done
• VG247 felt that Vivian's gender identity is expressed in a transphobic fashion.
  • Verb tense agreement "was expressed"
    • Fixed.
      •  Done
• Writer Laura Kate Dale also criticized her treatment in the Japanese version.
  • Which: Did she criticize the treatment Vivan received by the other characters, or did she criticize the way Vivian was written by the development team?
    • Reading the text, she appears to be criticizing how the game presents her (citing a statement that was not made by Vivian's sisters).
      •  Done
• She felt that the suggestion that she was at one time male implies that she is not truly female.
  • This is the first time you're mentioning this dialogue being in the game. So a better way to write it be something like: "She was critical of dialogue in the game that stated she was at one time male, feeling it challenged her validity as a female."
    • Tweaked it to be more like your suggestion. What do you think?
      •  Done
• The moment spoke to them in particular due to being a younger sibling themselves.
  • IDK I'd remove this unnecessary detail. Is Vivian the younger sister btw? You never mentioned that.
    • She is, though I reckon I can just as well use the Nintendojo source to cite that.
      •  Done
• See Also: Birdo
  • I'm generally not a fan of See Also sections in most standard articles like this. Links in See Also "should reflect the links that would be present in a comprehensive article on the topic" (MOS:SEEALSO). As a GA should be comprehensive, Birdo should be mentioned in the article if she is truly relevant.
    • I feel that this is justifiable because while Birdo is not mentioned directly in the text, she is mentioned in multiple sources as a similar character - a Nintendo character who is transgender.
      • Then what would be best is to add a sentence into Reception like: "She has often been compared to Birdo, another transgender character by Nintendo."
        • That's a good idea. - Bryn (talk) (contributions) 20:27, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
          •  Done

@Abryn: TarkusAB^talk/contrib 19:50, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for these comments, I'll get to them ASAP. - Bryn (talk) (contributions) 19:53, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

I've addressed the points you've raised, do you feel that I adequately did so? @TarkusAB: - Bryn (talk) (contributions) 20:56, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

Localization section

Personally, I still find this sentence confusing:

European localizers noted however that a game with references to trans people faced difficulties from the Pan European Game Information ratings board, and as such changed such references to a genital reassignment surgery, which allowed for the flavor of the character to remain intact.

Surely a reference to "genital reassignment surgery" is a reference to "trans people"? I looked at the original source, and found that it was also confusing:

European localizers noted that a game with a reference to transgenderism was unlikely to receive a 3+ rating by PEGI. Nintendo decided to modify the dialogue by replacing the reference to transgenderism with one to a sex-change operation, which still allowed the original flavour to be maintained. In the Italian version Vivian states that she has turned into a woman, and this small change was deemed enough to obtain a 3+ rating for this particular game from PEGI

My recommendation is to just remove the sentence, unless a better source can be found. I don't think there's a way to render what the author is saying here clearly, because I don't think the author is being clear.

(Hopefully its OK for me to post in this section, I'm not very familiar with GA reviews.) WanderingWanda (talk) 00:24, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

Honestly, I personally think the line is fine, though perhaps worth improving and clarifying further; the RS simply seems to say that they had to do it in a very certain way to appease PEGI. It's not unprecedented for a ratings board to be weird about what is okay and what is not. - Bryn (talk) (contributions) 01:53, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

I've changed it to this, see what you think: European localizers were concerned that the Pan European Game Information ratings board would not give the game the 3+ age rating they were aiming for because of how the game presented Vivian, however, they were able to find wording that the board would accept, and got the 3+ rating. WanderingWanda (talk) 03:02, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

That seems aight. As far as mentioning the surgery, I did actually check that; when Vivian is called a man in the Italian version, she cites the fact that she has, well, gotten the surgery. A strange line to be certain, and one that comes off more than a little bit problematic, but yeah lol. - Bryn (talk) (contributions) 13:21, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

Hmm, in my digging I'm not finding any explicit references to surgery....According to this paper, in the Italian version Vivian says I’m proud to have turned into a woman!” One could interpret "turned into a woman" as referring to gender confirmation surgery, but I don't think that's necessarily what the line means...

In any case, though, I've come back around to thinking we should just toss the sentence out. The source the sentence is based on (a passage from this book) is based on this paper. And I get the sense from that paper that all the stuff about the European localizers changing content specifically to attain a certain age rating is just speculation. If the author interviewed the localizers, or read an interview with them, she doesn't mention it. So I think we should just focus on the differences between the different versions of the game and leave out the stuff about the age rating. WanderingWanda (talk) 07:34, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

Good points about the speculation concerns, and I'm also concerned about the use of the term "genital resassignment surgery", without the game explicitly using that exact terminology. She doesn't even appear to be human, let alone have genitals. What do you think Bryn? TarkusAB^talk/contrib 15:12, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

But how would she pee That's probably the best approach TBH. As it is, transitioned works really well, because it COULD mean GRS, but transitioning can also be social or legal, so it avoids a lot of guff. - Bryn (talk) (contributions) 15:31, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

Pass TarkusAB^talk/contrib 15:40, 30 August 2019 (UTC)