Talk:Tugh (village)

The Memorial (society)

Hi, @Archives908 I restored the soured material. The Memorial (society) is reliable source, which used in many AA area articles. A b r v a g l ^(PingMe) 18:42, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

That Memorial page doesn't say "Azerbaijanis were expelled", it just says they left their residences. And why should the lead say Azeris were "expelled" while Armenians only "left"? --Dallavid (talk) 19:15, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

Hi Dallavid. I restored material because the only concern of the Archives, as per his edit summary, was that source is not reliable.

With regards to Azerbaijanis were expelled or the whole inhabitants of a number of Azerbaijani villages all over the sudden decided to leave their homes for no apparent reason: That Memorial page clearly implies that population of the villages were forced to leave, i.e. expelled. Some villages, for example, Imeret-Gerevent, were burned by the attackers. Several thousand Azerbaijanis left their places of residence (not counting the Azerbaijanis, who settled the previously deported Armenian villages). There were isolated cases of severe violence against the civilian population (for example, in the village of Meshali). Claim that the villagers who fled from the oncoming enemy army, which burns down villages and commits serious violence against civilians, were not forced to leave, but left of their own free will, is a ludicrous claim.

And why should the lead say Azeris were "expelled" while Armenians only "left"? - Why are you questioning me? If you have any suggestions, please share them. If it's that essential to you, which it appears to be, make an edit and explain yourself briefly in summary. If there were Armenians prior the 2nd war, then obviously they were forced to leave, that is what I think. Yes, you can reinstate source and change both to "forced to leave". A b r v a g l ^(PingMe) 20:37, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

@Dallavid, can you please quote in which exact place Memorial article states that civilians, as you say, left the villages? Point it to me please. A b r v a g l ^(PingMe) 20:46, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

You already quoted it: Места своего проживания покинуло несколько тысяч азербайджанцев (без учета азербайджанцев, которыми заселили депортированные ранее армянские села) ["Several thousand Azerbaijanis left their places of residence (excluding Azerbaijanis, who settled in earlier deported Armenian villages)"]. You also quoted the part that said incidences of violence were isolated cases. --Dallavid (talk) 17:08, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

Yes, this quote states покинyли, which means "left", but I was asking about the sentence which mentions Tugh village, not the one I quoted.

Lets say even violent incidents did not change your view; you still believe that thousands of villagers were not forced to leave, but left of their own will. What about the portion of the source, just once sentence before to what I quoted, which mentions village Tugh and states жители азербайджанских сел...были вынуждены покинуть их. (residents of Azerbaijani villages ... were forced to leave)? A b r v a g l ^(PingMe) 18:59, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

It says they left because of the fighting, not they were directly deported or anything like that. It also lists Tugh among several other villages in the only mention, Tugh isn't mentioned again in the rest of the page. And that am logic of them leaving willingly can be applied to the Armenian residents also, but it was worded completely differently. --Dallavid (talk) 16:58, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

Original

Вместе с тем, в результате боевых действий армянских вооруженных формирований жители азербайджанских сел Башгешлаг, Шефек, Зейва, Тодан — в бывшем Шаумяновском районе, Туг, Салакатин — в Гадрутском районе НКАО, Имерет-Геверент — в Мардакертском районе НКАО, Джамилли, Лесное (Мешали) — в Аскеранском районе НКАО, Ходжавенд, Диваналар — в Мартунинском районе НКАО были вынуждены покинуть их. Некоторые села, например — Имерет-Геревент, были сожжены нападавшими. Места своего проживания покинуло несколько тысяч азербайджанцев (без учета азербайджанцев, которыми заселили депортированные ранее армянские села). Имели место отдельные случаи тяжкого насилия против мирного населения (например в селе Мешали).

Translation

At the same time, as a result of the hostilities of the Armenian armed formations, residents of the Azerbaijani villages of Bashgeshlag, Shefek, Zeyva, Todan - in the former Shahumyan region, Tug, Salakatin - in the Hadrut region of the NKAR, Imeret-Geverent - in the Mardakert region of the NKAR, Jamilli, Lesnoye (Meshali ) - in the Askeran region of the NKAO, Khojavend, Divanalar - in the Martuni region of the NKAO were forced to leave them. Some villages, for example, Imeret-Gerevent, were burned by the attackers. Several thousand Azerbaijanis left their places of residence (not counting the Azerbaijanis, who settled the previously deported Armenian villages). There were isolated cases of severe violence against the civilian population (for example, in the village of Meshali).

On Thug (village) article Dallavid appears on the next day after my edit, and reverts my edit removing the sourced content

The source clearly says that Azerbaijani villagers were FORCED TO LEAVE. I'm not going to follow on ludicrous claim that the attackers, who were burning down villages and committing violence against civilians, welcomed populace of the villages to stay, but population decided to leave the villages of their own free will, rather than being expelled or forced to leave. With regards to Armenian population, as I already said, they can be forced to leave or evacuated you can provide relevant source to support it and make your edit. I have no objections. A b r v a g l ^(PingMe) 07:13, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

Is Dallavid not allowed to edit 24hrs after you? I don't see any issues per WP:BRD. As for the source itself, this is precisely why I was uneasy with it, even if it is WP:RS and clear as ice to someone else, I had trouble understanding the context (perhaps because of the translation, it is slightly open for interpretation/ambiguous). I've never once said that the events described here are not valid, but perhaps you can find another -more definitive- RS which cement's your claim? Archives908 (talk) 14:29, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

I had trouble understanding the context - I know Russian perfectly, and do not have any trouble in understanding the context. If you have any questions - you can ask me.

it is slightly open for interpretation/ambiguous - really, there are no place for any interpretation - villagers were forced to leave, i.e. expelled.

I've never once said that the events described here are not valid, - did you say that it is not WP:RS?

you can find another -more definitive- RS - what is wrong with the current one? The Memorial (society) is perfectly definitive and reliable source, which used in many AA area articles. If anyone going to challenge it - I suggest to take it to the RSN. A b r v a g l ^(PingMe) 15:41, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

And not one use of the word "expelled". But it does say that "Azerbaijanis left their places of residence", yet Malikbek chose to write "left" only for Armenians without any source. --Dallavid (talk) 22:53, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

All right, I made an edit, where I did not use word "expelled", although forced to leave is synonym of expelled, and did not alter Armenian population part. A b r v a g l ^(PingMe) 17:53, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

That version still avoided saying the Armenians were also forced to flee, although AntonSamuel's edits have fixed the issue and it seems fine as is now. --Dallavid (talk) 22:14, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I originally removed the source as I believed it to be non-RS. However, I never once said that the contents within it were completely invalid. Read edit summaries more carefully please ;) My concern is no longer with the source itself- so no need to reiterate it a fourth time. When I tried using a translator, the translated text came out a mess. Considering the fact that two editors have concerns regarding the text (although, I'm not sure if Dallavid was also having translation issues?), I don't think it's a bad thing to do more research. I'd rather trust another WP:RS (in addition to the one we already have), then trust an editor's (whom I don't know) word on translation. Since the source itself is RS, I'm not opposed to reinstate it. I just want to make sure that the contents are translated precisely as supposed to an 'interpretation' of the text or an 'interpretation' of a faulty translation. How can I trust your translation above is accurate? Can you recommend any sites that can translate the source with better success/ more accuracy? And I will gladly use it to review the text. Nothing wrong with being thorough. Archives908 (talk) 17:53, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

Since you don’t trust me, here are translation from Google, Apple and Yandex. Is it enough? if it is not I can take it to human translator and provide translation verified by governmental body.

Google translate:

At the same time, as a result of the hostilities of the Armenian armed formations, residents of the Azerbaijani villages of Bashgeshlag, Shefek, Zeyva, Todan - in the former Shahumyan region, Tug, Salakatin - in the Hadrut region of the NKAR, Imeret-Geverent - in the Mardakert region of the NKAR, Jamilli, Lesnoye (Meshali ) - in the Askeran region of the NKAO, Khojavend, Divanalar - in the Martuni region of the NKAO were forced to leave them. Some villages, for example, Imeret-Gerevent, were burned by the attackers. Several thousand Azerbaijanis left their places of residence (not counting the Azerbaijanis, who settled the previously deported Armenian villages). There were isolated cases of severe violence against the civilian population (for example, in the village of Meshali).

Yandex translate:

At the same time, as a result of the hostilities of the Armenian armed formations, residents of the Azerbaijani villages of Bashgeshlag, Shefek, Zeyva, Todan — in the former Shahumyan district, Tug, Salakatin — in the Hadrut district of the NKAO, Imeret-Geverent — in the Mardakert district of the NKAO, Jamilli, Lesnoye (Meshali) — in the Askeran district of the NKAO, Khojavend, Divanalar — in the Martuni district, the NKAO were forced to leave them. Some villages, for example — Imeret-Gerevent, were burned by the attackers. Several thousand Azerbaijanis have left their places of residence (excluding the Azerbaijanis who settled the previously deported Armenian villages). There have been isolated cases of serious violence against civilians (for example, in the village of Interfered).

Apple translate:

At the same time, as a result of the hostilities of Armenian armed groups, residents of the Azerbaijani villages of Bashgeshlag, Shefek, Zeiva, Todan - in the former Shahumyanovsky district, Tug, Salakatin - in the Hadrut district of the NKAO, Imeret-Geverent - in the Mardackert district of the NKAO, Jamilli, Lesnoye (Meshali) - in the Askeran district of the NKAO, Khojavend, Divanalar - in the Martuni district of the NKAO were forced to leave them. Some villages, such as Imeret-Herevent, were burned by the attackers. Several thousand Azerbaijanis left their places of residence (excluding Azerbaijanis who were inhabited by previously deported Armenian villages). There have been isolated cases of serious violence against civilians (e.g. in the village of Meshali).

A b r v a g l ^(PingMe) 19:10, 5 November 2022 (UTC)