Talk:Tmux/Archive 1

Archive 1

Ease of configuration

The first source given does not actually support the given statement (no comparison is made in the source, no specifics of configuration are given). The second source relies on an anonymous comment by "nm", who appears to be tmux's developer (reading context of other comments). TEDickey (talk) 01:19, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Post a link to book I authored?

I wanted to inquire with the rules on whether it would be ok if I added a link to my book on tmux, The Tao of tmux. It is available for free online and licensed CC BY-NC-SA 3.0 US. The link would be to https://leanpub.com/the-tao-of-tmux/read. I like the approach the book takes toward describing tmux by the way of its objects (server, sessions, windows and panes) and think it'd be beneficial to those learning more about tmux. Git-pull (talk) 05:24, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

"tmux" or "Tmux"?

Is it named "tmux" or "Tmux"? Both spellings are used in this page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Therealjohnfreeman (talk • contribs) 21:25, 12 January 2019 (UTC)

11/2018 Written in comparison with GNU Screen

Article should be rewritten explain Tmux characteristics by itself, not just in comparison to GNU Screen. Tech201805 (talk)

Great… now it looks rewritten, and is completely useless for determining why anyone would use it instead of Screen. Which is what literally everybody will read it for, since everybody, especially those who come here, uses Screen! Thanks for making another article useless, guys! You’re almost approaching the level of mathematics articles on Wikipedia! Good job! —.— 2A0A:A546:8C12:1:BD06:64FC:FFAF:994E (talk) 22:23, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

tmux in NetBSD base system

In revision https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tmux&diff=next&oldid=1079254072, @Tedickey reverted mention of tmux in the NetBSD base system with the note 'src/external is not part of the "base system"'. In NetBSD's source tree, however, it is. "src/external" includes code that originates from outside of the NetBSD Project, but software from that source location is still included in the base system. This includes, besides tmux, such core components as GNU grep or gcc.

I'd like to suggest to reinstate my previous edit from revision https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tmux&diff=next&oldid=1017859794. Jschauma (talk) 01:54, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

That's only a starting point. To provide a reliable source to support your argument, you'll need 1-2 sources: one that documents sys/external as part of the "base systems", which appears to need a clear definition, and another source such as a mailing list announcement stating that tmux is part of the base system. Just having some source code in a directory tree doesn't come close to either of those issues. TEDickey (talk) 07:50, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

I've found no reliable sources which support that. For instance, the NetBSD 9.3 release announcement (referring to other programs in sys/install) makes a distinction between those and the base system: "Various third-party components included with the NetBSD base system were updated". TEDickey (talk) 08:23, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

Heads up: tmux imported into src

hier(7) manual page explaining the purpose of '/usr/src/external'

Jschauma (talk) 13:10, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

Sure - src/external is (as noted above) for third-party programs, not actually part of the base system. If you disagree with that, quoting the actual text you're interpreting is the way to go. You might find Third Party Software Distributed with NetBSD helpful. In a quick count, that's 153 programs, of widely varying sizes (hint: tmux is smaller than most, and if you take a look at the NetBSD sources, you may notice that list of 153 is incomplete). Regarding your edits, they would be more useful to readers if you put this stuff into perspective. TEDickey (talk) 01:02, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

You appear to misunderstand the term "base system". The fact that code comes from different places does not in itself mean it's not part of the base system - the question is what is being distributed. By your logic, gcc would not be part of the base system, nor would be gdb, or bind, or, ... The email I referenced above is unambiguous: "As proposed in the "Importing tmux into base" thread [1], and after core@ approved the proposal, I have imported tmux (version 1.4) into the NetBSD base system. As a result, tmux will ship with NetBSD 6.0."

The page you cited, too, exactly makes my point: it is is software that is distributed with NetBSD, not separately, and ergo part of the base system.

This is what it means to be for a piece of software to be part of the base system: It ships with it out of the box, and no additional software installation steps are needed.

I don't know why that is even remotely controversial, but hey, ok, I don't need to further try to persuade you. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

207.172.174.21 (talk) 01:19, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

The NetBSD documentation doesn't agree with your viewpoint TEDickey (talk) 21:30, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

Is your position that the email by the NetBSD developer who imported tmux into the NetBSD base system, citing the decision by the NetBSD core team to import tmux into the NetBSD base system and announcing the import of tmux into the NetBSD base system is insufficient or unreliable evidence that tmux is included in the NetBSD base system?

Jschauma (talk) 22:09, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

Read my links above (today's a good time to start) -- NetBSD distributes it as a third-party application, making a distinction between that (and more than 150 others) and base. `src/external` is in `src`, and according to the documentation isn't base TEDickey (talk) 22:55, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

You might find it helpful to understand that the developer has mostly (85%) worked on pkgsrc, and that their opinion of what constitutes base is not going to match that of the developers who document the releases. TEDickey (talk) 23:45, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

I'm afraid you still misunderstand the way NetBSD is distributed, quite likely because of the use of the word "external" in the source tree. The OS consists of many components; some of them come from third party sources (e.g., gcc, ssh, or, in this case, tmux). Because they originate from outside sources, they are imported under the "src/external" directory to facilitate a clean separation of origin by license as explained in the README: http://cvsweb.netbsd.org/bsdweb.cgi/src/external/README?rev=HEAD&content-type=text/x-cvsweb-markup

Components from that directory are still distributed as part of the OS. That is different from add-on applications that are provided by the packaging system pkgsrc. In NetBSD, anything provided out of the box, and notably included in the "base" tarball of the OS, is, well, the base system. That is regardless of where the sources originate from within NetBSD's source tree.

The page you cited (https://www.netbsd.org/docs/software/3rdparty/) is explicit about this as well: "This page contains a list of the software that has been integrated into NetBSD where we are not the primary maintainer." The software is *integrated into NetBSD*, distributed with it, and available out of the box after an installation of the, well, base system. So, for example, if you were to install NetBSD/amd64, you would fetch http://ftp.netbsd.org/pub/NetBSD/NetBSD-9.3/amd64/binary/sets/base.tar.xz, which includes /usr/bin/tmux. It is installed, without additional user interaction, in every installation of NetBSD, just like e.g. /usr/bin/ssh. It is part of the base system, just like any other component listed in the file that describes the base set (such as e.g., /usr/bin/ssh, which originates from OpenSSH source code imported under src/crypto/external): http://cvsweb.netbsd.org/bsdweb.cgi/src/distrib/sets/lists/base/mi?rev=HEAD&content-type=text/x-cvsweb-markup

Yes, tmux is "external" to the NetBSD *project*, because it originates from somewhere else; it is, however, integrated in the OS and distributed as part of the NetBSD *base OS* as the various links above show, and as was announced by a NetBSD developer with the explicit blessing from the NetBSD core team.

Jschauma (talk) 00:58, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

Sure, I understand the process by which NetBSD constructs installers. However, you appear to be unfamiliar with Wikipedia guidelines (despite occasional edits during this calendar year). A reliable source is something that's documented, verifiable (by others). If you're interested in proving that the release documentation is wrong (differs from the practice followed by the core developers), pointing to files in an archive as confirming your opinion has no effect TEDickey (talk) 07:51, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

Right, and so as I asked above, your position is that the email I quoted is neither a "reliable source", nor "verifiable"? That strikes me as bizarre.

I also do not see any release documentation that identifies tmux (or other components originating from 'src/external') as not being part of the OS. https://www.netbsd.org/docs/software/3rdparty/ describes it explicitly as "integrated into NetBSD", so I'm not sure I understand why you seem to believe that this says the opposite.

Jschauma (talk) 13:12, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

The email gives an intention (and is old), but the release notes summarize the relationship. Lacking a webpage published by the core developers documenting their policy for managing src/external, the release notes appear to be authoritative. Regarding "integrated", that's dubious since the actuality is that src/external provides applications for convenience (i.e., without a network connection) rather than necessity. If someone wants an up-to-date tmux (i.e., maintained) rather than just convenience, they'll use pkgsrc TEDickey (talk) 07:43, 7 September 2022 (UTC)