Talk:List of unbeaten football club seasons

Olympiacos unbeaten 1954-55

@Mishary94 @Abudabanas There seems to little edit war between you both. I think there is a misunderstanding in the reasoning here. Of course in the former format for the Greece championship, the regional league round also counts towards the championship. However, 1947-48 Olympiakos had not managed to remain undefeated in the previous regional league (see Greece championship 1947/48, eu-football.info).

However, it is different for 1954-55 (see Greece championship 1954/55, eu-football.info)
In accordance with this RSSSF source [1] Olympiakos achieved 30 points, so 10 wins, in the regional league preceding the national championship final round, where they were also unbeaten in 10 matches.

https://www.rsssf.org/miscellaneous/unbeaten.html In a different RSSSF source, RSSSF mentions only the final championship round as unbeaten ("only playoffs"), but not that they are unbeaten in the whole league season in 1954-55. That's why I contacted the RSSSF directly to point out an supposed error or to ask for clarification. Miria~01 (talk) 15:10, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Totally agree. 1954-55 Olympiacos season is unbeaten of course. However, the table in this article here indicates at least 18 games on national top division. Olympiacos games were 10 regional (with minor local teams from Piraeus) and 10 national play-offs. From 1927 to 1958 that was the league format on most of the seasons (or simiral). A nationwide round robin Greek league tournament was established in 1959. As a result, I think that if Olympiacos 1954-55 season is included in the table, a note must occur mentioning that they played 10 regional and 10 national games. Thank you Abudabanas (talk) 15:19, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, a note like for Dresdner SC in their 1942-43 season in the "Note column" mentioning the 10 matches in the preliminary regional league format, including references. I would still wait until RSSSF has changed the main source (https://www.rsssf.org/miscellaneous/unbeaten.html) or added an additional information for this Greece Championship in their website. Miria~01 (talk) 15:41, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Olympiacos in the 1955 season should be included in the list. It is similar to what Dresdner SC did in 1942–43, playing 18 matches in a regional league and 5 matches in a final national league. What is the difference? Knowing that the Greek championships from 1927 to 1959 are recognized and administered by the Hellenic Football Federation and are counted as club league titles, I see nothing preventing us from including them in the list. --Mishary94 (talk) 15:52, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Just prefer it, when the source is clear. Perhaps it is not an omission on the part of RSSSF in this list, but rather an additional reason that it is handled differently than in the mentioned seasons for teams in Germany before the founding of the Bundesliga.

But I am not an opponent, if you already want to insert the 1954-55 season with an above-mentioned note. Miria~01 (talk) 16:04, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Olympiacos unbeaten seasons before 1959 are not mentioned in any reliable source. However you will find a ton of articles (as the one from uefa.com that I provided) from various sources mentioning that the only undefeated national champions in Greece were Panathinaikos in 1964 and PAOK in 2019. Why is that? I think because the league format was different. And to stay undefeated in 10 regional and 10 national games is not a remarkable feat. At least not the same with 1964 and 2019. Of course the Hellenic Football Federation recognizes the championships from 1928 to 1959. They were not a National round robin league tournament though. UEFA is clear about it I think (https://www.uefa.com/news-media/news/0213-0f8fe7cb47b4-0484be37826b-1000--panathinaikos-steal-olympiacos-s-thunder/). Abudabanas (talk) 16:35, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Unbeaten during a League Season
Note that in cases where the national title was decided in a tournament between winners of various regional leagues (such as in the Netherlands until 1956, in (West) Germany until 1963, and on the Cape Verde Islands and the Comoros until now) only those clubs are considered who remained unbeaten in both the regional and the national stage.[2]
This is what it says in the RSSSF source and would therefore also include the Greek championship of Olympiakos in 1954-55.

WP:NPOV A neutral point of view should always be taken on Wikipedia and no judgment should be made about the performance of the achievement, if it is a "remarkable feat" or not. Miria~01 (talk) 17:19, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

You are wright. It was my personal opinion on this and about the reason I believe that it is not mentioned by UEFA, worldfootball.net etc. All reliable sources indicate national unbeaten champions only in 1964 and 2019. I always respect a neutral point of view. What matters here is that in this table, that season is represented properly. I believe a note that Olympiacos played 10 regional games will solve all this. Thank you Abudabanas (talk) 17:44, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

@Abudabanas and Mishary94: RSSSF-source has been updated[3]

• 1936/37 1.Olympiakos Piraeus 10 9 1 0 30- 7 19 [regional league and national playoff]
• 1937/38 1.Olympiakos Piraeus 10 10 0 0 47- 8 20 [regional league and national playoff]
• 1952/53 2.Olympiakos Piraeus 14 10 4 0 46- 4 38 [regional league and national playoff]
• 1954/55 1.Olympiakos Piraeus 20 19 1 0 69-17 59 [regional league and national playoff]
• 1963/64 1.Panathinaikos 30 24 6 0 67-19 84
• 2018/19 1.PAOK Thessaloniki 30 26 4 0 66-14 80

Just for info, since the others do not exceed the minimum of 18 games, nothing needs to be added in the table. Miria~01 (talk) 14:26, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Well done. Thank you Abudabanas (talk) 15:11, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Great job, thank you alot. --Mishary94 (talk) 15:33, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Hello! I would like you to answer me some questions, if you would be so kind. Who established the limit of 18 games for men and 12 for women? No such thing is mentioned in the references. I also looked at the entry history and found nothing. Is this legal? It's definitely demeaning to women. Could I, for example, lower the limit to 10 or raise it to 20, without documenting it with any source? And finally, why didn't you put all the groups mentioned in the reference? I think here too there is a distinction between teams, countries and leagues.

I apologize if I tired you and thank you in advance. 2A02:586:813D:2A91:7CBB:11FB:4AA4:2AC7 (talk) 12:26, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Hello, I believe 18 is based on the league table consisting of 10 teams, where each team plays against nine clubs home and away, totaling 18 matches. The limit of 18 matches, I think, is because there were leagues in the early 20th century consisting of only two or four matches. As for women's football, I believe it differs from men's football because most leagues consist of ten or eight teams, and so on, unlike men's football, which usually has more than ten teams, except in rare cases. Mishary94 (talk) 16:40, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

In my humble opinion, I support the minimum of 18 matches for both men and women. Mishary94 (talk) 16:42, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Can you help me with an edit war on the Greek Championship article Super League Greece? Greek Championship is divided in 3 sections since 1927. Panhellenic Championship (1927-1959), National League (1959-1979) and Professional League (1979-present). I write down the 3 sections and a brief description of each period, format and change of name. Wrote on the other user's talk page, but he keeps reverting edits, deleting the format of Panhellenic and National League sections, pointing out the change of name since 2005 (only the name changed, the league is still a Professional League). You helped a lot with the unbeaten seasons of Olympiacos and your neutral point of view, asking for your help here. Thank you Abudabanas (talk) 06:56, 21 June 2024 (UTC)