Talk:The Bourgeois Blues/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: IndianBio (talk · contribs) 09:35, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Lead

• In the infobox you can use the single cover artwork.
  • None exists. Single artwork wasn't common on folk records at this time --In actu (Guerillero) | My Talk 13:50, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
• Can you mention in one/two words who is Alan Lomax?
  • I call him a folklorist and link to his bio. It is hard to describe him in few words past that. --In actu (Guerillero) | My Talk 13:50, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
    • Guerillero, that is not a valid reason I feel. Why was Billy recording something for this man? It is an awkward construction.
• Link Jim Crow laws together
  •  Done as [[Jim Crow]] [[Jim Crow laws|laws]] --In actu (Guerillero) | My Talk 13:50, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
• and tells of the conditions that African-Americans encountered at the time in the southern United States --> and talks about the conditions of the African-American people at that time in the southern United States
  • African-Americans is used in formal Americana English and your version makes the phrase unnecessarily wordy --In actu (Guerillero) | My Talk 13:50, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
    • Remove the word people then.
      • No.--Guerillero | Parlez Moi 20:10, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
• and then rerecorded --> and then re-recorded
  •  Done --In actu (Guerillero) | My Talk 13:50, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
• Since then, it has been remixed and rerecorded by a number of artists --> Since then, it has been remixed and covered by a number of artists
  •  Done --In actu (Guerillero) | My Talk 13:50, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
• Bill Brag's remix to protest the Iraq War --> Bill Brag's remix of the song, to protest the Iraq War
  •  Done --In actu (Guerillero) | My Talk 13:50, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
• The song is regarded as one of Lead Belly's best original pieces, but is also a center of controversy. --> "The Bourgeois Blues" is regarded one of Lead Belly's most original compositions, but has also gained controversy.
  • Eh, I don't like restating the piece's name too many times but sure;  Done --In actu (Guerillero) | My Talk 14:00, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
    • Nor is the continuous usage of "The song". MAkes it a boring piece of prose. —Indian:BIO ^{[ ChitChat ]} 14:14, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
• Rephrasing the next lines: There has been doubts over whether Lead Belly had written the song without a collaborator; in addition, questions were raised over the role of Lead Belly in the American Communist party and whether he and his song were being used to further the party's political goals. The party had denied these allegations.
  • I don't see any problems here --In actu (Guerillero) | My Talk 14:00, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
    • The sentence constructions are wrong. You are trying to convey the idea that the song was controversial, but it is not a lingering controversy. This has been done and done. The sentences should reflect that.
      • I did some wordsmithing. --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 20:10, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
• In the lyrics section, what is the need of the small green box?
  • Shows a particularity interesting section of lyrics. I have used in in several other GAs (Pittsburgh Town/Good Old Mountain Dew) --In actu (Guerillero) | My Talk 13:50, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
    • Good, but you aren't highlighting that in the text are you? And neither you are actually giving an instance where the lyrics would need a quote box, and that too a colored one. Have you thought of color parameters or WP:ACCESS issues?
      • WP:ACCESS has no problems with the box since no information is being carried by the color and the light green provides enough contrast with the black. As for relevance, the first paragraph talks about the refrain and the lines being discussed are found in the box beside them; these are the lines that give the song its name. This is similar to the use in Amazing Grace, an FA --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 20:10, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
        • Amazing Grace has this whole quote box containing the poetic lyrics of the interpretation, and their meaning is being analyzed. My question to you is why just two lines need a separate quote box when they can be included in the prose text itself. I really don't care for other FA/GA that you included this. ETA: the line itself is not being discussed, "I got the bourgeois blues". Ledbetter's book talks about this, the word blues being used as a repressing term here. —Indian:BIO ^{[ ChitChat ]} 02:57, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
          • It pulls in the reader's attention and breaks up a wall of text to make it more interesting for the reader. At this point we are crossing over into personal preference territory. As the author, I chose to include an optional element. Just because in the things that you have written in the past didn't want to use a quote box does not mean that they banned by the MOS and especially not by the 5 parts of the MOS that are part of the GA criteria --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 21:43, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
• Also I would suggest to use a music sample in this section.
  • I would rather not. Lead Belly made so many versions that it is hard to find the right one --In actu (Guerillero) | My Talk 13:50, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
    • This is the exact reason why a sample would pass wP:NFCC#3a and WP:NFCC#8 here. The song has received so many covers, an aural illustration of the original version would definitely aid the reader in better understanding of the article. Having no sample in this case becomes detrimental. —Indian:BIO ^{[ ChitChat ]} 14:14, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
      • I strongly disagree that a lack of an audio clip is a detriment to the reader's understanding. Further, I do not have the time or resources to buy the song from Smithsonian Folkways, convert it to a .ogg, and edit it down to whatever length the NFCC people feel like it being this month. Per WP:GA? #6 -- The presence of images is not, in itself, a requirement. However, if images (or other media) with acceptable copyright status are appropriate and readily available, then some such images should be provided. -- the article is illustrated with an available piece of media that adds to the article. --In actu (Guerillero) | My Talk 18:56, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Will continue later. —Indian:BIO ^{[ ChitChat ]} 10:17, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

• • @IndianBio:, back to you --In actu (Guerillero) | My Talk 14:00, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

• Though Lead Belly didn't know what the word "bourgeois" meant --> Though Lead Belly did not know what the word "bourgeois" meant
  •  Done --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 21:43, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
• The song came together quickly; one account claims that it only took a few hours for Lead Belly to write it --> no need of a semicolon when it can be made a single sentence

  Hi there, I did the pre-GA copyedit on this article. The two clauses here can't be combined in the way you seem to be imagining ("The song came together quickly, one account claims that it only took a few hours for Lead Belly to write it") without creating a run-on sentence. The semicolon is used here to separate two sentences which are related in meaning but not grammatically intertwined. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 21:30, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

• Again an unsourced statement.
  • The statement above is cited by Scalera 2013. According to WP:GA? only direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, and contentious material relating to living persons need to be cited. The criteria does not state that every line needs a cite. --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 21:43, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
    • This article is not limited to WP:GA? criteria. You are grossly failing WP:V and moving into WP:OR territory. If something is sourced in the previous line who told you that the end of a para does not need to be sourced? Do you seriously believe that a reader looking for a source to an accompanying text is going to look in the previous line? Moronic assumtiono pal. —Indian:BIO ^{[ ChitChat ]} 07:58, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
• sarcastically cites "the home of the brave, the land of the Free" --> Is this part of the lyrics? Unclear
  • Yes and I don't find it unclear --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 21:43, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
• Pretty sure somewhere in the fourth verse lines racism should be linked to a wiki.
  • Feels like overlink, but sure  Done --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 21:43, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
• "The Bourgeois Blues" follows a traditional twelve-bar blues format.[10] --> REference 10 is wrong, its sourced to the book R&L Education, which is actually publisher while the book's title is A Tribute to Woody Guthrie and Leadbelly, Teacher's Guide.
  •  Done --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 21:43, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
• The song is set in the key of B♭ --> unsourced, as is the next line

  The source for this would be the song itself, no? The music would display the key signature it uses. I'm not particularly well-versed in music MOS stuff, but for a book it's generally understood that, for example, the book is the source for its own plot. The same seems reasonable for music. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 21:30, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

  • No, music is open to interpretation unlike strict words written in a book. That is why it is imperative that very jargon related to it is sourced from the book that you are using. You believe that I'm moving into personal opinion, no I'm not. Music articles are what I write mostly and I know what kills or survives in an article about a song, albeit a blues one. —Indian:BIO ^{[ ChitChat ]} 07:58, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

    I can understand that in cases like the lyric meanings you're questioning below, but for a key signature, it's literally just a fact: the sheet music (presumably; I don't have it handy) has a key signature of B flat and that would be clear to anyone who can read music. I mean, I suppose Guerillero could add a cite to "the song itself", if you demand it, but it seems pretty redundant to require a cite to the sheet music of the song every time the musical notation of...the sheet music of the song...is discussed. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 13:24, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

    • Fluffernutter first of all thanks for taking time to understand the point and respond amicably. It is a kind of weird thing, but until and unless you add a proper cite, you cannot actually verify that the song was built on that particular key. Again as I said, it is open to interpretation, and I'm sure you would know that many people might listen to music, but hardly maybe 10% of them understands chords and keys. As an outsider if I'm reading this article and I'm like ... "Hey this article says the song is in B-flat, but my mama sang it in C sharp, why damn it be listing false, lemme correct it.. C sharp it is". And that's how disrupting editing starts. Trust me, every piece of information needs a source. The pop music articles are plagued with such editors, who revert and WP:EW on genres, keys, chords, etc on amny things. If you are still apprehensive I can bring you into the music related editors and you can also check out their opinions. —Indian:BIO ^{[ ChitChat ]} 13:38, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

• the song has been rerecorded and reimagined --> the song has been covered... the first artist is the one that actually records a track, every other artist after the first release is covering that track even if that means a new recording.
  • partly done --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 21:43, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
• Theessink adapted the song to his style of European blues for the album Journey On --> Can we have some years here? Its pretty vague right now chronologically
  •  Done --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 21:43, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
• The lyrics speak of the problems faced by young Australians in the Australian Capital Territory in the 1960s. --> unsourced
  • Not in the GA criteria and the citation in in the next line over --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 21:43, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
• Bragg claims that the Iraq War --> overlink
  •  Done --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 21:43, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
• In another, he takes on the Christian right, asking where the moderates are. Finally, Bragg chides the United States government for not dealing with poverty at home before going to war. --> unsourced, I'm not sure why such important piece of information are actually unsourced.

  Again, this seems to be summarizing the song itself. You could perhaps argue with word choice here, but the source for "the lyrics are about X" would be...the lyrics. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 21:30, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

  • I did it anyway --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 21:43, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

  And you were correct to do it Guirillero. To answer Fluffernutter I'm not sure about your editing expertise but yeah interpreting lyrics to own thoughts is WP:OR, and every interpretation would require source. To both of you, please look WP:GACR#2, "counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged". I'm challenging the unsourced statements here as the reviewer. You are free to ask for second opinion but I'm not passing this article and refuse to progress further unless the unsourced content are either removed or citation is added. You have seven days to do that else this article will fail and you are free to go for WP:GAR. —Indian:BIO ^{[ ChitChat ]} 07:58, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

11 Aug

@IndianBio: Can you take another look? --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 01:24, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

Second-opinion review from Calvin999

Indian-Bio asked me to leave a second-opinion here.

• "The Bourgeois Blues", sometimes titled as "Bourgeois Blues", is a blues song by American folk and blues musician, Lead Belly. → I know it's in the title of the song, but 'blues' is used four times in one sentences. Omit 'blues' in "is a blues song by".

• "Blues" is both part of the title and the genre of the song. It certainly looks a bit silly, but those are both necessary pieces of information for the lede. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 18:45, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

• It's not necessary to use it four times in quick succession. It's in the title and you say he is a blues musician, so it's obviously a blues song.  — Calvin999 17:21, 14 August 2015 (UTC)
  • I would much rather remove "...by American folk and blues musician..." --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 18:28, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

• Washington DC to record for Alan Lomax. → Who is Alan Lomax?

• Clicking on "Alan Lomax" takes you to an article about him. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 18:45, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

• You can't rely on someone always having to click on a link  — Calvin999 17:21, 14 August 2015 (UTC)
  • Lets look at a random FA like say Whaam!, a painting that I like. It was passed in 2013 so it conforms to the modern versions of the FA criteria and the MOS. This is the first few lines, "Whaam! is a 1963 diptych painting by the American artist Roy Lichtenstein. It is one of the best-known works of pop art, and among Lichtenstein's most important paintings. Whaam! was first exhibited at the Leo Castelli Gallery in New York City in 1963, and purchased by the Tate Gallery, London, in 1966. It has been on permanent display at Tate Modern since 2006." the reviewers seemed perfectly content with letting terms like diptych, Pop Art and Tate Modern be explained only through links in the lead. Therefore, this is an invalid concern. --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 18:28, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

• It rails against racism and Jim Crow laws and tells → What od you mean by "rails against"? Also, repetition of 'and'

• See here for a definition of "rails". As for "and", yes, it is used twice, because syntactically the two "and"s are conjoining two different sets of things: [racism and Jim Crow] and [rails and tells]. I could tweak the sentence to not need the two "and"s, but it's unlikely to be any less awkward in another construction, really. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 18:45, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

• Link African-Americans ?
  •  Done --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 20:11, 13 August 2015 (UTC)
• Bill Brag's remix of the song, to protest the Iraq War gained attention in 2006. → Grammatical construction of this sentence needs revising.

  That appears to have been a typo. Fixed. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 18:45, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

• There is doubt over the song's authorship with some scholars contending that Lead Belly could not have written it without a collaborator. → Why?

  This is discussed in the article body and "why" is answered there, but I've added a bit more detail to the lede. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 18:45, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

• The lead is supposed to summarise.  — Calvin999 17:21, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

• In addition, questions have been raised over the role of Lead Belly in the American Communist party and whether he and his song were being used to further the party's political goals. The party denies these allegations. → I don't think this is needed in the lead, doesn't seem relevant.

  ?  — Calvin999 17:21, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

  There is a whole section of the legacy section about lead belly and the communist party. --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 18:28, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

• He was invited by the folklorist Alan Lomax to record tracks for the Library of Congress's folk music collection in June 1937. → Why didn't you use this phrasing the lead? It makes more sense.
  • Because I try not to use the same phrasing in both the body and the lead and the lead is only supposed to be a short summary of the article. If you would like a full understanding, read the body. --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 20:11, 13 August 2015 (UTC)
    • But this is written better and more clearly.  — Calvin999 17:21, 14 August 2015 (UTC)
• they encountered Jim Crow laws similar → What are these?

• Clicking on the term brings you to an entire article describing it. Its lede provides a decent summary. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 18:45, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

• • So far that's three links you expect me to click on to gain further knowledge on something that you don't feel needs explaining here?  — Calvin999 17:21, 14 August 2015 (UTC)
    • Ibid. --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 18:28, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

      We're expected to explain "highly technical" terms in situ, but to wikilink to "people, events, and topics that already have an article or that clearly deserve one, so long as the link is relevant to the article in question," deciding based on "How likely is it that the reader will also want to read that other article?" (that's all direct from WP:BTW). Things like Alan Lomax's life story, the history of Jim Crow laws in the USA, etc are topics that will deepen readers' understanding of the background of the song, so it's appropriate to link them and to expect readers who want more information to click on them. There's no few-word explanation for "this the name of a person with a significant history of involvement in the civil rights era", and thus it's more appropriate to direct readers to articles on those people than to interject their biographies into this article. However, since "Jim Crow law" is somewhat opaque on its own to someone who knows nothing of American history, I've tweaked that sentence slightly to add more detail. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 18:48, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

• What does the picture of Lead Belly and Martha add to this article? There is no description caption which helps to inform the reader.
  • They are the author of the song and his wife who both experienced the events that were the impetus for the song. --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 04:11, 13 August 2015 (UTC
    • Until and unless you use a proper caption, this image has no importance whatsoever, its pure decorative then. —Indian:BIO ^{[ ChitChat ]} 05:24, 13 August 2015 (UTC)
      •  Done --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 20:11, 13 August 2015 (UTC)
• I really don't see what the point of that green box is. It doesn't explain or add anything to the article.
  •  Won't fix I have already argued about this above. --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 04:11, 13 August 2015 (UTC)
    • Then that shows it's an issue? I didn't even read IndianBio's comments above to be as impartial as possible.  — Calvin999 17:21, 14 August 2015 (UTC)
• is a blues-style → Blues style is not the same as a blues song. It means it is in the style of, meaning borrowing elements. If it is blues-style, then it should not be included in the info box
  •  Won't fix the song is genre breaking in more ways than one and both terms are used in the RSes. --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 20:11, 13 August 2015 (UTC)
• You don't mention folk anywhere in the composition section, so why is it in the info box?
  • This is still not done. Unsourced genres are violation of WP:V. —Indian:BIO ^{[ ChitChat ]} 05:24, 13 August 2015 (UTC)
• From a structure point of view, I don't understand why you've made a separate Music section with just three short sentences. There's no reason why this couldn't go in the Composition section above.
  •  Won't fix It doesn't fit there in any logical way --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 04:11, 13 August 2015 (UTC)
    • What logical way? The composition of a song includes its music+lyrics analysis, as well as its themes. You are unnecessary making a section where it need not be. —Indian:BIO ^{[ ChitChat ]} 05:24, 13 August 2015 (UTC)
      • It looks forced, but  Done --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 20:11, 13 August 2015 (UTC)
        • It doesn't look forced. That's how all composition sections are structured.  — Calvin999 17:21, 14 August 2015 (UTC)
• He rerecorded the song in April 1939 → Shouldn't rerecorded be hyphenated?

• I think technically it could go either way, but sure, why not. Hyphen added. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 18:45, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

• Why isn't Template:Lead Belly included at the bottom of the article (This song should be added to this template, by the way).

 — Calvin999 10:17, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

• • Adding to it, the song is nowhere linked in the template also. —Indian:BIO ^{[ ChitChat ]} 05:25, 13 August 2015 (UTC)
    •  Done --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 20:11, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

• Ref 17, Boing Boing, is a gross unreliable fanzine. I can't even believe that it is present in the article nominated for GA. I am replacing it with {{citation needed}}. Please find a suitable replacement. —Indian:BIO ^{[ ChitChat ]} 18:24, 15 August 2015 (UTC)
  • The "fanzine" has an editorial board and expert writers but I have swapped in a book --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 01:22, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

• Cover art for the single. I found the 7" single version with 4 songs in the track list at Discogs here. Please add it along with the track list. —Indian:BIO ^{[ ChitChat ]} 10:39, 16 August 2015 (UTC)
  • No, the GA criteria does not force any article to use non-free material. Further, I don't see what the center of the A-side of the second 10 inch produced it going to add to the reader's comprehension. --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 14:01, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

There's nothing else I can add here. The nominator isn't willing to co-operate on some issues.  — Calvin999 10:54, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

I have removed unsourced genre folk. All genres have to be "strictly" sourced and the nominator's rationale that its used in WP:RS does not hold candle here. —Indian:BIO ^{[ ChitChat ]} 11:07, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

Because a footnote to a University Press book isn't good enough... I'm done here. Do what you want --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 14:01, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

Just as a note for future use, Template:Cite_web#Publisher is still being used and the column size is not mentioned in WP:ACCESS and further Template:Reflist recommends using 30em or 20em. --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 14:01, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

After much changes and discussions and compromises, this article is standing in good shape for me to list it as a GA. Congratulations on promoting such an old blues song to GA. —Indian:BIO ^{[ ChitChat ]} 13:53, 22 August 2015 (UTC)