Talk:Théoden/Archive 1

Picture, aswell

I think the picture of Theoden from Peter Jacksons movie should be changed. Because right now it shows a picture of the aged version of Theoden. And Theoden is only in that state for a short time( in the movie). This picture just doesn't show him correctly. 80.57.174.103 17:47, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

The Middle-earth project guidelines are quite clear on avoiding adaptation specific images in the info boxes. There is plenty of scope for using them in the adaptation section. Carl Sixsmith (talk) 07:37, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Picture

Can I asky why the picure attached to the infobox was removed some time ago? I know this entry is about the character as a whole, not just the Peter Jackson version, but other characters have similiar pictures attached. I know some Tolkien purists might not like some of the differences in the Jackson version, but I really don't see that as a reason to remove a picture, assuming that's what it is of course. Douglasnicol 22:54, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

POV?

"Théoden's decision to take his people to safety at the stronghold of Helm's Deep rather than to confront the enemy in open battle is, somewhat unconvincingly, presented as a grave strategic misjudgement, which Gandalf can only make up for by finding Éomer in time."

The 'somewhat unconvincingly' comment strikes me as POV and has no source to back it up. (Personally I found it a reasonable enough plot device). Could use a source or removal, maybe? 130.88.179.77 (talk) 19:30, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Present tense v past tense

The guidelines on fictional coverage clearly state we should use present tense when writing about fictional characters. There is no exception for Tolkien. The long standing pactice by some editors of using past tense is one of the reasons many of these articles have been tagged for 8 years as too in-universe. There is no reason to use past tense in these articles. Tolkien in no way ever makes a cxlaim that they are accounts of real history, so we should not at all write of them as such.John Pack Lambert (talk) 21:46, 20 January 2020 (UTC)

They are guidelines, not laws. Past tense vs present tense has been discussed for the last 10 years at least (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Middle-earth/archive16#Past_tense) and the guidelines do state history (including fictional history) can be written in past tense. Lava Lamps (talk) 21:48, 20 January 2020 (UTC)

This is not fictional history. It is an account of Theoden's actions in the work.John Pack Lambert (talk) 21:58, 20 January 2020 (UTC)

Please do not be disingenuous: "When his son Théodred was mortally wounded at a battle at the Fords of Isen, Théoden's nephew Éomer became his heir. However, Éomer was out of favour with Wormtongue, who eventually had him arrested." is certainly "fictional history". Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:38, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

Johnpacklambert: Please stop edit-warring on this matter, you are more than experienced enough to know that when a discussion is already under way (in two places!) it is not collegiate to attempt to force your opinion on to an article, indeed on to a whole family of articles. It has already been explained to you that WP:FICTENSE applies. Let us please deal with this intelligently. Many thanks, Chiswick Chap (talk) 19:59, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

This hard headed refusal to allow people to improve the articles at all is why we have such sub-standard articles related to Tolkien characters. You guys are so hard headed you revert an edit that only removed a dead link to a non-existant article. This is atrocious and counter productive. You are ignoring the guidelines on how articles on fictional material should be written.John Pack Lambert (talk) 20:07, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

• The above is an example of the total hogwash pushing engaged in to harass and drive off anyone who is trying to move these articles out of being stuck in in-universe perspective. There is no "discussion 10 years ago". There is no agreement. There is no reason the report on presnt events in the Two Towers and the Return of the King should be written in other than present tense. This is the type of harrassment used to preserve walled gardens and prevent the improvement of Wikipedia. It is closely connected with the attempts to malign those of us who tired of standing by and letting Wikipedia be chocked by hundreds of Tolkien cruft articles.John Pack Lambert (talk) 20:11, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

• There is no need to become abusive. I have added dozens of reliable sources and many paragraphs of well-supported critical text to numerous Tolkien articles in the past weeks, strengthening the articles which could benefit from that treatment, and I have supported several deletions and redirects where these were appropriate. There is a clear route to follow with WP:FICTENSE. Let's work together to make the whole corpus better. Chiswick Chap (talk) 20:15, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

• This says "Works of fiction are generally considered to "come alive" for their audience. They therefore exist in a kind of perpetual present, regardless of when the fictional action is supposed to take place relative to the reader's "now". Thus, generally you should write about fiction using the historical present tense, not the past tense. (See WP:Manual of Style § Verb tense and WP:Manual of Style/Writing about fiction § Contextual presentation.) Examples:

Homer presents, Achilles rages, Andromache laments, Priam pleads. "Holden Caulfield has a certain disdain for what he sees as 'phony'." "Friends is an American sitcom that was aired on NBC."

So this would mean when we talk about Theoden's actions in "The Two Towers" and "The Return of the King" we should be using present tense. That is how we should describe his actions in battle, etc.John Pack Lambert (talk) 20:20, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for discussing this rationally. That object-level discussion should however not be here but in the main discussion. Chiswick Chap (talk) 20:39, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

It is a specific discussion about the specific wording of a specfic passage in this article. I see no reason it should not be here.John Pack Lambert (talk) 21:40, 24 January 2020 (UTC)