Talk:Tel Or

Sources

5 of the 6 sources provided are inaccessible, either to page restriction/need for subscription/crashed website/etc.. And the sixth one that does open, it does not support the claim it makes "Today the power plant and the destroyed village of Tel Or are located on the Jordanian side". Sources are needed for this "company town" notion.

"The Road to Jerusalem: Glubb Pasha, Palestine and the Jews" this source explicitly mentions that Tel Or is in Palestine not Transjordan.

The Israeli ministry source is not reliable, even though it doesn't open. I like how the source was "accessed" seven years ago, when this article was created last month. Makeandtoss (talk) 17:48, 4 November 2016 (UTC)

"mounted a mortar and artillery attack from Transjordan on Haganah forces at the Naharayim (Jisr al Majami) police fort and neighboring Kibbutz Gesher, on the Palestine side of the international frontier." Page 134.

"It was therefore logical that the region be included in within the Jewish state, especially as, in 1922, when the British fixed the boundary line between Palestine and Transjordan they had already included the area in Palestine." Page 35 Makeandtoss (talk) 09:40, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

Some wires are crossed here. Tel Or was on the east side of the Jordan River see this map and there was no deviation of the border away from the river here that I recall. I also have a source which talks about Abdullah visiting and making remarks about Jewish workers on Transjordanian soil. So Tel Or was in Transjordan, not in Palestine.

On the other hand, there were nearby places on the Palestinian side of the border, such as Gesher (also called Jisr el Majami, which was the name of the bridge over the river). But maybe I'm missing something; I'm editing in a hurry. Zero^talk 10:17, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

These maps could be easily wrong, there could have been a deviation of the border away from the river, and there could be more possibilities. This article makes a whole bunch of claims that are inadequately sourced, compromising the article's factual integrity. There are zero accessible sources here and there are contradicting sources. Makeandtoss (talk) 11:05, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

The maps I am consulting are the official high-resolution maps made by the government of Palestine. For example this 1941 map is very clear (the row of dots and dashes down the middle of the river shows the border, click to zoom in). So, no, they can't easily be wrong; it is you who is wrong, sorry. Zero^talk 09:44, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

Are we really using primary sources? The issue isn't only relating to if this was in Jordan. There's not a single accessible reliable source in this article. And it makes claims like "depopulation", " predominantly Jewish", "only Jewish village in Transjordan at the time". Makeandtoss (talk) 15:28, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

There is no rule against using maps as sources. As for what is in the article now, I haven't looked at it in detail so I'm not supporting it. I just want to emphasise that Tel Or really was in Transjordan. It is best to start with the facts and find sources for them than arguing against the facts. Zero^talk 22:00, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

Since there are bareky any clear sources on this, I guess we'll have to trust these maps. Makeandtoss (talk) 07:09, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

@Zero0000: Reconsidering. There is a huge problem with accessible independent sources that needs to be fixed. Over 80% of the article does not have backing and that is unacceptable. Also there is a problem with the existing sources, one of which is inaccessible. The Road to Jerusalem sources states explicitly that it was not in Transjordan but in Palestine and over the international borders. One logical explanation is that there were several components of whatever might have existed in that area, but to paint it all with one brush is original research at best and propaganda at worst. 13:36, 26 June 2018 (UTC)Makeandtoss (talk)

@Makeandtoss: I believe you are misreading Road to Jerusalem, which is understandable since the English is ambiguous. It is only intending to say that Kibbutz Gesher is on the Palestinian side of the border, which is true. There is no doubt whatever that the Naharayim (Tel-Or) settlement was on the Transjordanian side of the border. It is not completely clear what Morris means by "Naharayim (Jisr al Majami) police fort", since Naharayim was nearly 2km away from Jisr al Majami. Perhaps it is the police post that was several hundred meters from Jisr al Majami inside Transjordan in the direction of Naharayim. Zero^talk 14:32, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

Here is an example of a source stating directly that Naharayim was in Trans-jordan. This source says "Naharayim, near Jisr el Majamie, inside Trans-Jordan". This source reads like an expansion of Morris' words: "First, the Transjordanian Legion attacked and conquered Ruttenberg’s electric power plant at Naharayim on the east bank of the Jordan River and Kfar Or, the place of residence of most of the plant employees. Then, the Iraqis launched an offensive against Kibbutz Gesher and the adjacent police station south of Naharayim on the west bank of the river, in close proximity to the two bridges over the Jordan (see map)." I don't find a relevant map in that book. Zero^talk 14:55, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

@Zero0000: No, I don't think I am misreading the Road to Jerusalem source. "from Transjordan on Haganah forces at the Naharaiyum (Jisr al Majami) police fort.." Both of your sources talk about the Naharayim power plant and not Tel Or. And "Naharayim on the east bank of the Jordan River and Kfar Or" explicitly avoids mentioning that Kfar Or was in Transjordan. This article sources a bunch of claims and 581 words to two sources which are conflicting, ambiguous and inadequate, do you not find that problematic?

It seems to me you're basing both the content of the article and your position on a primary source (the map) which btw doesn't open to me anymore. Makeandtoss (talk) 14:23, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

@Makeandtoss: You should be a posek, but it isn't useful to analyse texts so closely. More so those which are translations (like Morris). There are always ambiguities and the placement of commas can't be trusted. However, the location of Tel Or is not in doubt. There are only two categories of sources on this. In one category, Tel Or is just another name for Naharayim or the area surrounding Naharayim. For example, Fredrik Meiton, The Radiance of the Jewish National Home: Technocapitalism, Electrification, and the Making of Modern Palestine, Comparative Studies in Society and History 2015;57(4):975–1006: "The area around the projected site of the powerhouse was renamed Tel Or (“Hill of Light,” in Hebrew)...As construction at Tel Or got underway in 1927...The name of the worksite itself, Tel Or..." If you search for Naharayim/Naharaim and Tel Or together at Google Books, you will find many sources that write "Naharayim (Tel Or)". One of them is cited by you above: at the top of the page it says "Naharayim (Tel Or)" and at the bottom of the page it says Naharayim was in Transjordan. (There seems to be a contradiction on that page.) The most detailed maps made by the British during the Mandate, and also the Palestine Index Gazetteer (the Palestine Government's official list of place names), consider Naharayim and Tel Or to be the same: example. Other sources consider Tel Or to be the name of the Jewish workers' camp for the power station. This 1954 Israeli map shows where the camp was located (the row of + signs along the Jordan and Yarmuk Rivers is the pre-1948 Palestine-Transjordan boundary, and the wide green line is the 1949 armistice line). In both types of source, Tel Or was in Transjordan. Now, two sources that explicitly place Tel Or in Transjordan. (1) "Harnessing the Jordan", The Times, Feb 25, 1929, p11: "All the High Commissioners have visited the works at Tel Or ('Hill of Light'), including Sir John Chancellor. The Emir Abdullah has also visited them recently, for the works are in his territory." (2) This Belgian thesis records an interview with the coordinator of the Jordan River Rehabilitation Project: "Tel Or was namelijk de eerste Joodse nederzetting in de regio en de enige ooit op Jordaans grondgebied." Translation: "Tel Or was the first Jewish settlement in the region and the only one on Jordanian territory." Personally I believe the map evidence is overwhelming proof, but as I have demonstrated textual evidence doesn't really disagree. Zero^talk 09:52, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

It can be hard to make the maps display. Try these searches: [1] [2]. For the first one, select any Jisr el Majami and for the second select "Gesher 1954 - גשר". Zero^talk 10:03, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

Incidentally, the very long line of houses in a straight line in this photo is clearly visible on both those maps, exactly where Tel Or is written. Zero^talk 11:44, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

I agree with Zero - i've seen sufficient sources to establish that Tel Or workers' camp is now on the Jordanian side of the border with Israel, and so it was during the Mandatory Palestine / Transjordan Emirate period. I've been at the Jordanian-Israeli border site several years ago and could notice remains of the British/Hashemite border post with Tel Or site being to the East of it (there is still an old road leading towards Tel Or). Naharayim power plant itself now de-jure belongs to Jordan, while until the 1994 peace accords used to belong to Israel; it is not entirely clear regarding Naharayim plant sovereignity in the British Mandate era, but the workers' camp was clearly in Transjordan.GreyShark (dibra) 09:59, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

I don't think that the Naharayim power plant ever belonged to Israel. It was on the Jordanian side of both the pre-1948 border and the post-1948 armistice line. Those two boundaries differed in that the armistice line cut off a piece of the east bank (basically "Peace Island"), but the power station was still to the east of it. See the 1954 Israeli map I linked to above. Maybe it was occupied in 1967; I'm not sure. There is a whole section on it in the Israel-Jordan peace treaty. Zero^talk 10:38, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

It belonged to Mandatory Palestine and then it was destroyed in 1948 War. Technically it never belonged to Israel. The site itself is right on the armitice line and Israelis controlled it until 1994.GreyShark (dibra) 13:24, 2 October 2018 (UTC)

No, it didn't belong to Mandatory Palestine, it belonged to Mandatory Transjordan. The power station was opened by King Abdullah, not by the Palestine High Commissioner. It wasn't right on the armistice line either. Israel did not control it for 1949-1967. If the power plant site was controlled by Israel for 1967-1994, that would be interesting but where is a good source? Zero^talk 13:41, 2 October 2018 (UTC)

I take back the struck-out part. Abdullah was a guest but Rutenberg and the High Commissioner made the speeches. I stand by the rest of it. Zero^talk 13:59, 2 October 2018 (UTC)

Tel Or and "Peace Island"

Israel never claimed sovereignty over Peace Island, only that it was on the Israeli side of the armistice line. For this article that is only peripheral information, since neither the Tel Or site nor the power station site lie in Peace Island. Both those sites were on the Jordan side of the armistice line (look at the 1954 map by the Survey of Israel here to see the Israel version of where the armistice line stood in relation to the international border; Jordan disagreed, by the way) and under full Jordanian control without a break from 1948 to now. The portion of Jordan called Peace Island given special treatment in the 1994 treaty is show by the dark line on this map annexed to the treaty. It does not include the power station site or Tel Or. Zero^talk 00:27, 28 September 2018 (UTC)

I don't understand what is the argument for removing the paragraph. Originally, in 1930s Tel Or was on the Transjordanian Emirate side and the Power Plant was on the border, now both on the side of the Kingdom of Jordan. What is the problem with wording?GreyShark (dibra) 21:21, 29 September 2018 (UTC)

Incidentally, there is a difference between "Peace Island" and "Peace Park". The map here makes the relationship clearer. The small part called Peace Island on that map matches the 1994 treaty. It would be fine to say that Tel Or lies in Peace Park (not Island) except I'm not sure if Peace Park officially exists yet. That web site shows a proposal, and this site describes it as under development. Zero^talk 00:48, 28 September 2018 (UTC)

Yes, Tel Or is not on the island. It is on the East Bank of Jordan / South Bank of Yarmouk.GreyShark (dibra) 21:21, 29 September 2018 (UTC)

To editor Greyshark09: About these sentences: Today the power plant and the destroyed village of Tel Or are located on the Jordanian side of the Israel-Jordan border. The remains of the power station are part of the Jordan River Peace Park on the Island of Peace on the Israel-Jordan border. Probably I should have just reworded the first sentence rather than deleting it, but the second has multiple problems. I don't like "Today" as it seems to imply it was not the case in the past, but in fact both sites were on the Trans/Jordanian side of the border from their time of construction until now. Also "part of the Jordan River Peace Park on the Island of Peace" is wrong, as above, and the repetition of "Israel-Jordan border" is bad writing. Finally, is the much larger area "Peace Park" in official existence, or is it still a concept under development? If it has been officially opened it would be nice to have a source. Zero^talk 04:47, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

Originally, the plant was on the border of Transjordan Emirate and British Palestine and Tel Or in Transjordan; later Tel Or turned to be on Jordanian side, while Island of Peace under Israeli control (from 1948 or 1967? I'm not sure); after 1994 both have been under Jordanian control. I don't mind to reword the sentence. Regarding the second sentence, you are right - it is not entirely correct, but i think it is better corrected than deleted. Maybe The remains of the power station together with the Island of Peace are part of the Jordan River Peace Park on the Jordanian side of the Israel-Jordan border.GreyShark (dibra) 11:38, 2 October 2018 (UTC)

Answering your statement above, the Power Plant was on the border: it is not true. The border followed the center of the Jordan River (defined in the Palestine Order in Council) and it is shown like that on official maps both during the Mandate and afterwards (Israeli example on the map I added). The river did not pass through the power station but to the west of it. On the map, the dark line along the east bank was concrete reinforcement to stop the river bank from collapsing (anyway it was and is in Jordan). Water flowed through the power station from the Yarmouk Reservoir then continued down the artificial race channel shown extending south until it reentered the Jordan River downstream. Zero^talk 05:00, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

This image shows the layout quite well. The Yarmouk Reservoir is in the upper left and the Jordan River is in the lower left corner. Zero^talk 05:11, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

Those are nuances, it is several dozen meters from the border. You can reword "on the Jordanian side of the Israel-Jordan border" and get done with it.GreyShark (dibra) 11:41, 2 October 2018 (UTC)

This presentation shows the old buildings of Tel Or with the caption "The old workers housing complex – future ecolodges". Zero^talk 12:13, 2 October 2018 (UTC)