Talk:Teachings of Presidents of the Church

Joseph Fielding Smith in 2014

An editor with only an IP address changed this page recently, claiming that Joseph Fielding Smith would be the next installment in the Teachings of Presidents of the Church series. If this is truly next year's course of study, I have no problem leaving this information in the article. But the cited source seems flimsy at best. There was no picture accompanying the cited source, and nothing in the cited source that stated specifically that Joseph Fielding Smith would be the prophet of study in 2014. What can be done about this? I ran an internet search for this alleged manual and found only references to Joseph F. Smith or Joseph Smith the Prophet. No "Teachings" of Joseph Fielding to be found, which makes me more than a little suspicious that this is just speculation and nothing more. Thoughts? --Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable (talk) 06:10, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

While I am willing to give the benefit of the doubt that Deseret Book wouldn't have any form of page up/in process without an appropriate reason, I think it's a rush to add this. I was tempted to revert the change yesterday, but held off. I believe it is appropriate to wait until the LDS Church's website (or curriculum instructions for 2014) officially post this as the course of study. ChristensenMJ (talk) 19:12, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

I couldn't agree more. Since we form a consensus, I have reverted the change and urged users to discuss it here before adding it back. --Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable (talk) 06:56, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Joseph Fielding Smith will be the course of study for 2014, but I agree there is no good source for this yet. With time one will come. Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 21:05, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

This has been an interesting process of epistemology. I have a copy of the book in question, and Deseret Book shows that it will be in fact used next year, but the hold up is not having it on the LDS church's official site? An interesting process of epistemology.Infracaninophile (talk) 06:49, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

As noted by Good Ol’factory, the issue is not disputing whether or not that's going to be the course of study - and it shouldn't be viewed as beholden to the LDS Church's website. Having a copy of the book or a non-sponsoring institution's source of what somebody else's course of study will be isn't the type of source this ought to have if there's really intent to keep these articles more than just heresay and whatever is convenient to post to them. ChristensenMJ (talk) 16:31, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

So does this work? http://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-of-presidents-of-the-church-joseph-fielding-smith?lang=eng Infracaninophile (talk) 23:56, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

I would personally be in favor of using the reference from the LDS Newsroom. That the manual is online is not sufficient. It is the news release that verifies the information we need. I would have no objection to adding in the reference that refers us to the LDS curriculum guide for 2014. After all, the curriculum guide is what we used for references for the past several years. So I would say either the news release or the Instructions for Curriculum 2014. This source should be added ASAP. --Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable (talk) 02:30, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

I have updated the article. The news release about the 2014 curriculum was published 29 August 2013. Steve Cottrell (talk) 06:54, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

@Jgstokes "That the manual is online is not sufficient."? On what grounds? We are sourcing the LDS site. I think were are getting into a tactical agnosticism that is leading to slothful induction. What say you?Infracaninophile (talk) 16:55, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

"That the manual is online" does not indicate that it will be used in 2014. The 2014 instructions for curriculum does. Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 16:59, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Good Ol'factory hit the nail right on the head. That was precisely my objection to using the manual to prove it will be used next year. It is only through the Instructions for Curriculum that we learn it will indeed be the course of study for 2014. I couldn't have said it better myself. He took the words right out of my mouth. --Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable (talk) 02:42, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

One last beating for a dead horse: I do not want this to be contentious, since this discussion is now moot. But a word about epistemology and verification. The way the discussion went is that we conceded that the manual exited, and was for the year, but then there was an agreement to pretend that there was uncertainty—beyond any shadow of a doubt—that it was for 2014. This solely because we could not find a link to the LDS church for that year. But for what year could the manual possibly be? This is just intellectual play-acting. To admit the manual exits, but to say you are uncertain about it being for 2014 (prior to the official announcement) because there as not like to an LDS site is like saying you don’t know if you are mortal, since you haven’t died yet. Have fun in 2015!Infracaninophile (talk) 19:55, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

It's not play-acting, and I for one never said that I was uncertain about it being the curriculum for 2014—in fact, I indicated just the opposite. We were adhering to the foundational Wikipedia policy of verifiability. It has to be in black-and-white in a reliable source to include the information, even if we otherwise "know" it is true. As the policy states, "Even if you're sure something is true, it must be verifiable before you can add it." This is often summed up by the statement that the threshold for inclusion is "verifiability, not truth". Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 21:01, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Ezra Taft Benson in 2015.

According to this link, Ezra Taft Benson will be the course of study for the Presidents of the Church series in 2015. Since this is sourced, it can be added with a source to this page. Please discuss here before reverting. --Jgstokes (talk) 19:33, 17 August 2014 (UTC)