Talk:Sudovians

Sudovians vs. Yotvingans

• Sometimes a extinct and unrelated nation of Yotvingians might be reffered as Sudovians too

Please provide support references for this. AFAIK Sudovians from Suwalki area are typically refereed to as "Jacwingi" in Polish language. mikka (t) 17:00, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

In the literature I've seen, the Sudovians and the Yotvingtians are just different names for the same tribes.

• For example, we have Gimbutas (The Balts, p. 23) saying "Sudovians, the largest Prussian tribe, were also called Jatvingians (Jotvingai; Jatwiagi of the Slavic sources)."
• From an article on Lietuviškoji Enciklopedija "one ancient Baltic tribe, and language, is called in Lithuanian, jotvingiai, or sūduviai. In English, various spellings of these names have been used: Yotvingians, Yatvingians, Suduvians, Sudovians, Sudavians, etc. EL has chosen: Yotvingians and Sudavians. Whether this spelling will set some trend, remains to be seen. "

If they are not the same, then we need to make the difference very clear in the articles. Thanks, MapMaster 03:24, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Sudovians and Yotvingians are lithuanisms, actually theese names are not correct, because Yaatvingians did not called themselves in such names. If we even assign theese names to them, we must derive the name of this Baltic tribe from their native pronunciation, i.e. Jātvingai ['ja:tvingai], the English variant could be Yaatvingians (British) or Yatvingians (American). Sudavians actually are artificially made by Lithuanian linguists basing on Sudavian language which is lithuanized Old Prussian language or some type of reconstruction of Proto-Prussian. So in reality, I think, we can talk only about Yaatvingians. Roberts7 00:32, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

• In regard to the ethnic origin of Sudovians and Yotvingians, the two are as different as night and day. The Baltic Sudovians were mentioned by Ptolemy. The Yotvingians take their ethnonym from the Varangian Norse Játvingr, to be located near Grodno in the 9th-10th century. Multicultural assimilation after the 10th century transfered this ethnonym to various other people of that region. Been there, done that, got the Tee shirt. Sudowite (talk) 16:01, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

• Since this article is about an actual people, it should provide revelant archeaological and genetical evidence to substantiate any proposals - no matter how popular they may be. Most of the article so far relies on linguistic references, which is a good start, but on the whole this article lacks little more than multilingual historic heresay. Who were these PEOPLE, and what did they DO? Sudowite (talk) 18:45, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

• The Balts by Marija Gimbutas, references a Sudovian burial on p. 115, fig. 38 with an illustration. The burial orientation is to the W-NW. The same page mentions what crops are found, as does the next page. Page 117 describes livestock and metallurgy, pages 118-119 covers trade and with who. None of this factual information about Sudovians is found in this article. What facts do we know about "Yotvingian" culture from excavations? What does the evidence reveal? Are such excavations mentioned in the "Yotvingian" article? Neither the Sudovian article nor the Yotvingian article present much evidence, if at all - and yet, note the debate. There are scholarly presentations of archeaological evidence on the internet. Perhaps the article should just indicate where they are to be found. Sudowite (talk) 21:08, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

Nation?

We should distinguish an ethnos such as Sudovians from a nation such as Lithuanians, shouldn't we? --Ghirlandajo 17:09, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

• Yes we should. Clearly the Lithuanians and the Latvians are related and as such, their languages are related and form a small dialect continuum accross the territories with a number of intervening dialects including one which is considered to be a seperate language from both, hence the people might call for greater autonomy in the future. The languages are referred to as Baltic; I know it's slightly impractical since it is the name of a sea and many non-related countries share access to the sea, most chiefly Estonia whose language isn't even Indo-European. Nobody speaks of an ethnic tribe from centuries ago who are ancestors of Latvians and Lithuanians but it is clear that these people are descended primarily from a single group. It remains unknown whether the similarity between Baltic and Slavic languages emerged from having a single proto-language or from living alongside each other for long periods of time, but what is definitely clear is that the local names from Latvia and Lithuania are sure to be variants of the same name, look at the L+T+V connection and compare this to the Slav-root in Slovenia, Slovakia, Slavia, Slovincia, Slavonija, Slovan etc. If we can establish what the original LTV word was, then perhaps we can resurrect its usage and claim Sudovian etc. as having been descended from it. Celtmist 23-10-05

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Note: This article is imprecise, Sudauer- Sudovians, also called Yatwinger, Jatwigian etc are westbaltic Prussians, not Lithuanians, even though the eastbaltic speaking Lithuanians are remotely related.

Samples: The Pater Noster/Lord's Prayer:

Prussian Sudovian Jatvingian: http://www.christusrex.org/www1/pater/JPN-jatving.html

Prussian: http://www.christusrex.org/www1/pater/JPN-prussian.html

Lithuanian: http://www.christusrex.org/www1/pater/JPN-lithuan.html