Talk:State Route 1002 (Lehigh County, Pennsylvania)/Archive 1

Wow

Saw this page on WP:GAC; I grew up in the Lehigh Valley, and I remember walking down Union Boulevard. I never imagined there would be this much to say about the road! Impressive Chubbles 21:29, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Note: said as a former resident and not as a GA Reviewer - I make no statements for or against this article's status. Chubbles 06:41, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

OK, I tried my best on the article.--JA10 ^{T · C} 02:58, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Failed GA

I failed this as a Good article candidate for several reasons:

1. The grammar and spelling is flawed. Other text is ambiguous; you say "Where Tilghman Street reaches the more populated part of the city, it intersects with Pennsylvania Route 145, forming Allentown’s 6th and 7th Streets." This implies that SR 1002 is 6th and 7th Streets, but those carry PA 145.
2. There appears to be some original research and unreferenced assertions that need references:
   • "Tilghman Street divides into a mini freeway when meeting U.S. Route 22." All I see on a map is a partial directional interchange with at-grade intersections right before and after.
   • You say that "the William Penn Highway was decommissioned", but don't include a reference. PennDOT's site refers to the William Penn Highway, so is it really decommissioned?
3. You mention the Sproul Highway Act but don't say if and how it affected SR 1002.
4. There are definite errors. For example, the original alignment of US 22 went via Reading, roughly along what is now US 222 and PA 222.
5. Why is the history split at 1941? Did anything important happen then?
6. Does the continuation in Northampton County have a number?
7. The only image in the Commons category that is not in the article is the (no offense) rather badly-taken Image:Tilghman Street at Jordan.jpg. Maybe the Commons category should not be linked.

Good luck on improving it. --NE2 21:34, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

These issues are really easy to fix. I'm going to begin work on them.--JA10 ^{T · C} 20:34, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Good Article Review

Article is in the process of a GA review. -- JA10 ^{T · C} 22:37, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

History

A book i found saids that the railroads were ignored by the public because of the construction of roads. Especially in PA when the auto trails were created like the William Penn Highway. Theres 8 diners nearly one per mile on SR 1002. Following an established practice for automobile roads the original William Penn Highway was routed from Harrisburg through Lebanon via US 422 to Reading to Allentown via US 222. In the early 1930s, a much faster route through northern Lehigh and Berks county was created. This change took busy traffic off Allentown's Hamilton Boulevard which use to be US 222 and put it four blocks north on Tilghman Street. From 1930s to 1950s, "SR 1002" served as a Allentown's main route for long distance travelers and locals too. Book: Diners of Pennsylvania page 94 authors:Brian A. Butko and Kevin Jospeh Patrick --JA10 ^{T · C} 21:53, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Can you get the ISBN number for that? We can use it by doing a {{cite book}}. V60 ^{干什么？ · VDemolitions · VRoads (路)} 21:55, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

The number is 0811728781.--JA10 ^{T · C} 22:03, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

This can be seen at [1]. --NE2 22:04, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Yeah but I used the book instead, whatever you guys use as a reference is fine.--JA10 ^{T · C} 22:06, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Don't forget page 96, there's a map on the diners and some text about the highway. --JA10 ^{T · C} 22:31, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

If you or anyone else can get the text of the act of June 22, 1931 (P.L.594, No.203), entitled "An act establishing certain township roads as State highways...", I have reason to believe that it might relate to SR 1002. --NE2 00:34, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Some notes on the history

PennDOT has some historic state and county maps at [2]. The following notes are mainly from them.

• 1913-15: nothing on SR 1002. LR 157 west from Allentown on Albright Avenue/Reading Road and LR 159 east from Allentown into Bethlehem on Hanover Avenue/Broad Street to Linden Street. (But the Northampton County map shows it on Market Street!) This roughly followed a line of the Lehigh Valley Transit Company between Allentown and Bethlehem.
• LR 443 was defined by Public Law 191, passed April 8, 1925, from LR 285 [Spur, probably added by Public Law 1161, passed July 20, 1917, and shown on a 1926 Berks County map] on the Berks/Lehigh county line to Allentown.[3]
• 1930: US 22 on Hamilton Street, Hanover Avenue, and Broad Street through Allentown to Linden Street in Bethlehem. PA 43 on Liberty Street and 17th Street to Hamilton Street. It's not clear how it got to Liberty Street; the map only goes west to 24th Street. SR 1002 exists but is not used by any routes.
• 1940-50: US 22 on SR 1002 to Main Street in Bethlehem. (US 222 cuts north on 15th Street to reach it.) US 22 Alternate continues east on Union to Linden Street as LR 48011. SR 1002 is LR 443 west of 15th Street, LR 157 to the Allentown/Bethlehem line, and LR 159 through Bethlehem and along Main Street.
• 1960-70: US 22 on freeway (LR 772). No signed number for old US 22 or US 22 Alternate, but still LRs. West of the SR 1002/US 22 interchange, LR 443 moved to freeway, and SR 1002 is LR Old 443 (later LR 443 Parallel). In 1970, PA 191 southbound used SR 1002 east of PA 378; this was presumably changed when PA 378 opened and Bridge Street became one-way northbound off the bridge to Main Street. Also current SR 1001 (Third Avenue) was LR 159 Spur and PA 191 south.
• 1974-76: Old US 22 in downtown Bethlehem is no longer state maintained. LR 159 has a gap east of PA 378. (LR 159 east of downtown is now SR 2020.) LR 443 Parallel only exists east of Church Street in Fogelsville (LR 39084, now SR 3014). It appears that the gap in LR 159 was legislated on December 15, 1971 by P.L.610, No.164: [4]; here's an early draft of the 1971 law.

From the maps, it looks like the west end on SR 1002 is at Church Street (SR 3014), and the PennDOT VideoLog confirms that. It also shows that the east end of SR 1002 is at PA 378, and not the bridge at the county line. The name changes from Main Street to Tilghman Street at PA 100 and Tilghman Street to Union Boulevard at the east end of the viaduct. --NE2 23:36, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Specific text of laws

April 8, 1925

• Route 443. From Route 285 via New Smithville to Allentown Beginning at a point in State Highway Route Number Two Hundred and Eighty-five on the dividing line between Berks and Lehigh Counties, and running thence through New Smithville, Fogelsville, Chapmans, Kuhnsville, and Cetronia to the boundary line of the City of Allentown.

June 22, 1931

• Beginning at a point on College Heights Boulevard, on The dividing line between The city of Allentown and South Whitehall Township; thence over College Heights Boulevard to The intersection of College Heights Boulevard and Tilghman Street; thence over Tilghman Street to The intersection of Tilghman Street and Fifteenth Street, in The city of Allentown, a distance of about 2.003 miles.
• Beginning at a point on The Hamilton Boulevard, on The dividing line between The city of Allentown and South Whitehall Township; thence over Hamilton Boulevard to The intersection of Hamilton Boulevard and Hamilton Street; thence over Hamilton Street to The intersection of Hamilton Street and Fifteenth Street; thence over Fifteenth Street to The intersection of Fifteenth Street and Tilghman Street; thence over Tilghman Street and viaduct, crossing Lehigh Valley Railroad, Lehigh River, and Central Railroad of New Jersey tracks, to a point where Tilghman Street intersects with Union Boulevard; thence over Union Boulevard to a point on The dividing line between The city of Allentown and The city of Bethlehem, in The city of Allentown, a distance of about 6.48 miles.
• ...thence over Union Street to The intersection of Union Street and South Seventh Street; thence over South Seventh Street to The intersection of South Seventh Street and Hamilton Street, in The city of Allentown, a distance of about 1.45 miles.
• ...on The dividing line between The city of Allentown and Whitehall Township; thence over North Seventh Street to The intersection of North Seventh Street and Hamilton Street, in The city of Allentown, a distance of about 1.09 miles.

Move to the better-known street names?

Does anyone object to moving this to Tilghman Street and Union Boulevard? --NE2 03:28, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Yeah because both streets are numbered as SR 1002. You can redirect Union Bolevard to the article instead, Tilghman aliready redirects. --JA10 ^{T · C} 20:50, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

You should see use common names. Does anyone call it SR 1002? --NE2 19:43, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Go ahead and move it.--JA10 ^{T · C} 20:12, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Junction list

We are sticking with strict WP:PASH standards here. The junction list there says to use that format. I am reverting until further notice. V60 ^{干什么？ · VDemolitions · VRoads (路)} 22:44, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

I recently went through something very similar to this at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject New York City Public Transportation/Archive 6#Templates vs. redirects and the consensus after I posted on the village pump (scroll down to below the back-and-forth between Imdanumber1 and me) was that templates are not necessary, even if the project says that they should be used. --NE2 23:01, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

I do not see any link to the VP. Please provide one. V60 ^{干什么？ · VDemolitions · VRoads (路)} 23:18, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Oops, it was on Wikipedia:Requests for comment/History and geography, not the village pump. All the discussion was at the NYCPT project. --NE2 23:23, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

What you cited was not similar to this issue at all. It was merely an argument where people who apparently did not know the pipe trick used templates to link directly. V60 ^{干什么？ · VDemolitions · VRoads (路)} 23:27, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Maybe we should leave the PASH table and make some changes to it like the one NE2 created. It has to be up with project standards. --JA10 ^{T · C} 23:34, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

The one difference I see is that the "PASH" one grays out any row that has any former route and lists them all in the main column; this seems like overkill. Just as we describe the route before giving its history, we should describe the intersection before giving its history. In addition, if done with gray for any row with a former route, every row in [5] except maybe the ones with only a "TO" would be gray. US 22 used to be I-78, I-476 used to be PA 9, and PA 378 south of SR 1002 used to be PA 191. This is ugly and misleading, because all of these routes are still state highways, and most still have signed numbers. --NE2 23:44, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, for the intersections that have active routes on them, we should not gray them out, and place a blurb in the notes section. For the ones that are currently a regular street that formerly had a number on them, we should gray them out. V60 ^{干什么？ · VDemolitions · VRoads (路)} 23:49, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Agreed!--JA10 ^{T · C} 23:51, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

They all have active routes. --NE2 23:55, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Cedar Crest Blvd, 19th Street, 15th Street, and Airport Road do not have any active numbered routes except for quadrants. Therefore, the gray is needed there. V60 ^{干什么？ · VDemolitions · VRoads (路)} 00:03, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

They're still state highways. This is a page about a quadrant route; thus the context is quadrant routes and showing a current quadrant route in gray is misleading. --NE2 00:10, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

A quadrant route is basically a county route in PA. Therefore, the scope of the article is correct, but the quadrants in the article are not generally notable. Thus it is safe to leave them in gray. V60 ^{干什么？ · VDemolitions · VRoads (路)} 00:18, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Other problems with the "PASH" table:

• There is a lot of unnecessary bolding of routes.
• Some former routes, such as PA 191, are not included.
• The location column is inconsistent; Fogelsville and Kuhnsville are not incorporated places, and are actually in Upper Macungie Township. The I-476 ramp is in Upper Macungie Township, not South Whitehall Township.
• The county column is unnecessary, since it's all in Lehigh County.
• There's no reason for the street names to be small, when they're better known than the former route numbers.
• The "TO" plates have no alt tag; someone using a text browser (like a blind person) will think that US 22 intersects there. Why are only those two intersections listed as leading to US 22?
• The US 22 interchange is a single interchange, not two separate ones.

I fixed this all, but you decided to revert it. I was asked to help here, and I did, but now I'm done. --NE2 00:20, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

This should be discussed at WT:PASH, since it has more to do with the project's table. --JA10 ^{T · C} 00:38, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Structure

Now that the article is moved, the west and eastern terminus should change since we're not talking about SR 1002 anymore. Do we need to write about the entire length of Union Boulevard too? There's lots to do with this article.--JA10 ^{T · C} 23:07, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

If we were to change the scope of the infobox, we'd need to change most of it, including the maintenance, map, length, and date of formation. I think it's fine to keep the infobox as-is, since it does state "State Route 1002" at the top. --NE2 23:07, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

It's gonna be a bit confusing to a reader since we're not talking about the Northampton Co. part of union boulevard.--JA10 ^{T · C} 23:09, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm not saying we shouldn't talk about that in the article; I agree with mentioning it there. I don't think the infobox needs to be changed though. --NE2 23:14, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

We need to reach an agreement of the table so I can fill in the mileposts. I'm looking at FA-status for this article. --JA10 ^{T · C} 23:16, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

External links

It's true that wiki article don't need external links but before removing them please put a notice here and it can be discussed. External links help improve the quality of articles. --JA10 ^{T · C} 22:40, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

GA/R

The Good Article review on this article has been ended, and with 80 percent to delist the article, it has been delisted. Primarily the main concern was grammar problems and writing problems and the like, review archived here: Wikipedia:Good article review/Archive 17. Homestarmy 18:52, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Oddly, I couldn't seem to find it on the GA list anyway, someone may already of delisted it beforehand.... Homestarmy 18:53, 10 May 2007 (UTC)