Talk:Southern Cherokee Nation of Kentucky/Archives/2013/February

Hoax

This article has also been tagged as a hoax, I fail to how it is a hoax. The article is about the Southern Cherokee Nation of Kentucky, they do exist and have been recognized by the Executive branch of Kentucky, and the City of Henderson, Kentucky. The recognition documents are in the archives of both jurisdications and published on the web. The documents specifically say Southern Cherokee Nation, or Southern Cherokee of Kentucky. The article is properly cited, if there are specific citations in questions, please identify which ones. Where is the hoax? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.121.154.140 (talk) 09:18, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

The group is a state recognized tribe, so they do have some limited rights as such. States tend to not to have stringent criteria for documenting Indian blood (CDIB, etc.). The ties to historical Cherokees groups such as the Chickamaugas are completely unverified (and unverifiable), so those probably have to be pulled in order to make this article encyclopedic, and the article would then focus on this specific group and its accomplishments, whatever they may be. -Uyvsdi (talk) 19:56, 15 January 2011 (UTC)Uyvsdi

Mention of the Chickamauga Cherokee have been completely removed from this article, and mention made only of States usually accepted as being associated with the Cherokee people. ~PB —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.121.154.140 (talk) 21:07, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

The only bodies with the authority to "recognize" any group as American Indian are the Congress of the United States and the Bureau of Indian Affairs. State recognition is meaningless. Chuck Hamilton (talk) 01:34, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

Actually is not meaningless.

The Indian Arts and Crafts Act of 1990

The Indian Arts and Crafts Act of 1990 (P.L. 101-644) is a truth-in-advertising law that prohibits misrepresentation in marketing of Indian arts and crafts products within the United States. It is illegal to offer or display for sale, or sell any art or craft product in a manner that falsely suggests it is Indian produced, an Indian product, or the product of a particular Indian or Indian Tribe or Indian arts and crafts organization, resident within the United States. For a first time violation of the Act, an individual can face civil or criminal penalties up to a $250,000 fine or a 5-year prison term, or both. If a business violates the Act, it can face civil penalties or can be prosecuted and fined up to $1,000,000.

Under the Act, an Indian is defined as a member of any federally or State recognized Indian Tribe, or an individual certified as an Indian artisan by an Indian Tribe.

http://www.iacb.doi.gov/act.html

Key word there is "State recognized Indian Tribe" thus the United states government does NOT see it as meaningless.  :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.8.169.73 (talk) 12:40, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

Legitimate Article

It seems Chuck Hamilton objects to the existence of the kentucky Cherokee as a "tribe". His view is based on extensive knowledge of Cherokee history, as demonstrated in his article Timeline of the Cherokee Removal, but whatever their legitimacy as Cherokee, those calling themselves the Southern Cherokee Nation of Kentucky do exist as a group and as such have a right to representation on an inclusive global encyclopedia. Mark^Dask 19:14, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Only if the group is notable for some reason. It is not, it is nothing more than one of a dime-a-dozen such groups basing themselves partly on pseudo-history which have risen up in the last ten to thirty years. It is not merely a hoax, it is fraud. Chuck Hamilton (talk) 21:31, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Chiefs of the Southern Cherokee of Kentucky

   Stand “Alone” Watie
   1862-1871
   James “Samuel On The Hill” Martin
   1871-1900
   Thomas “Silver Fox” Scott
   1900-1920
   George Thomas “Horse Trader” Buley
   1920-1934
   Robert Henry “Yellow Hat” Scott
   1934-1950
   William Harrison “Jack Knife Trader” Buley
   1950-1961
   Robert Henry “Yellow Hat” Scott
   1961-1970
   William L. “Bright Eyes” Buley
   1970-1993
   Michael R. ” Man Fox” Buley
   1993-2012
   David L. Fallis
   2012

CLEARLY NOT a group that has risen up in the last 10-30 years :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.8.169.73 (talk) 12:55, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

This remark is highly inflammatory and biased, and demonstrates a lack of clear objectivity. 76.121.154.140 (talk) 00:55, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the user above has a point. Most of the article is about the Confederate veterans of the 19th century Cherokee Nation in Indian Territory, then at end skips to this group (Cherokee Nation of Kentucky) implying a false equivalency. No verifiable connection between these two completely different groups is established. The Treaty of 1866 was made between the Cherokee Nation and the United States and today pertains to the United Keetoowah Band, the Cherokee Nation, and the now independent Shawnee Tribe, and Delaware Tribe of Indians. It has no legal bearing to a state-recognized tribe located in Kentucky. The statement currently in the article about, "The Reconstruction Treaty of 1866, under Article V, set aside the Canadian District for the Southern Cherokee Nation", besides being unconnected to the CNOK, is simply false, as article 4 and 5 are online here and clearly state that settlement of the Canadian district is open to "All the Cherokees and freed persons who were formerly slaves to any Cherokee, and all free negroes not having been such slaves, who resided in the Cherokee Nation prior to June first, eighteen hundred and sixty-one."

The recent edits are a step in the right direction because they actually discuss the Southern Cherokee Nation of Kentucky but historical figures belonging to other tribes; however, there's no online, secondary sources about CNOK being involved in NAGPRA (Indianz.com is a discussion board and doesn't cast your group in a favorable light). If you really want this article, limit it to verifiable information about your organization. -Uyvsdi (talk) 14:37, 16 January 2011 (UTC)Uyvsdi

Uyvsdi - I have recently renamed the headings, and have tried to put them in sequentional order, and talk more about the Southern Cherokee. I do want you to know during the Civil war there were two factions of Cherokee warring against each other. The southern Cherokee were eventually forced out of the CNO, all but a few. The articles in question were written for the slave holding Southern Cherokee(the Pin Cherokee were generally not slave holders) and the Freedman, and the verbage of the articles imply that. I did include the Freedman in and referenced all articles 4,5, 7. Both the Southern Cherokee Nation and the Freedman were given the Canadian District, but under the guise of the CNO (kind of like a Nation within a Nation). This actually gave rise to some mixed marriages between the Southern Cherokee and the Freedman. However, the separation did not stop the two factions from warring. At the time of Reconstruction the Treaty was very applicable to the Southern Cherokee. many of the Southern Cherokee were eventually absorbed into the CNO, but many also left because of the reconstruction era violence. Masny factions of Southern Cherokee still cling to the 1866 treaty. I already told you how I felt about Native Americans in Kentucky and how they were written out of history. The documents that name Cherokee towns in in Kentucky are from the Transylvania Historical Society, and stamped with the Henderson County library seal. They are are not ones to misrepresent, or purport false documents. I just hope we can open up a positive dialogue about this. 76.121.154.140 (talk) 07

52, 18 January 2011 (UTC)