Talk:Reincarnation/Archive 3

The article needs focus and a better structure

CarlosRibeiro 22:12, 28 October 2006 (UTC) - In my opinion this article grew way to much, and needs more focus, or a better structure. Section boundaries are not being respected, and some views on the subject take a disproportionate amount of space. Due to the discussion on the scientific aspects regarding reincarnation, there has been a lot of editing; information on hinduist beliefs also takes a lot of space.

I believe this page should be a starting point for those looking for information regarding reincarnation. Specific views or beliefs should be discussed either into their own pages, or strictly inside a specific section. Adding more text to this page only makes it more confusing and less helpful to the casual reader. I propose the page to be split in such a way that only the main arguments from all sides are presented here, and details are discussed in the specific topic.

I agree that this page has become unfocused and without a coherant structure over time. However it makes sense to me that Hindu & Buddhist perspectives on reincarnation be explored in some amount of depth (as at present) because the theories of reincarnation and re-birth are essential to thier overall philosophies. The Jainist perspective should probably be mentioned in a more detailed manner than at present, but I'm aware this would make the page longer still. It's going to be a big job to fix up the article as a whole as there as just so many viewpoints on the subject. For me the intro is okay - it's the later sections and some kind of 'concluding' paragraph that is lacking. Ys, GourangaUK 11:14, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Given that the Reincarnation Research article is referred to, I suggest that the Research and Debate section (and sub-sections) could be condensed into a new, smaller section simply called Scientific Research. At present, discussion of research by Bishai, in particular, adds little and should be deleted. Johnfos 23:55, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Also, the "scientific publications" list at the end of the article needs to be better formatted and reduced in length. Johnfos 21:54, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Have now made these changes. Johnfos 12:36, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

This article is much improved now. Section boundaries are being better respected, and some sections which had a disproportionate amount of space have been edited. All in all, it is a tighter and better structured article now. Johnfos 02:02, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Problem with 'Concluding Comment'

This 'Concluding Comment' section has no citations to its reference that "Reincarnation is once again attracting the minds of intellectuals and the general public in the West". Citations are required to indicate that this section is not just speculation.

Also, the 'science of reincarnation' statement is an idication of an obviously theistic bias.

I've tried to word the Concluding Comment more carefully now, and have provided some references. See what you think. Johnfos 12:28, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Your addition to this section is an improvement. But there still needs subtantiation for the statment "Reincarnation is once again attracting the minds of intellectuals and the general public in the West". Statistics showing that there is a significant change (ie: increase) in the topic of reincarnation is required for this statement to be included. Aequitas1234 16:35, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Have made a change. See what you think. Johnfos 20:58, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Proposed New Page: Reincarnation and Hinduism

I feel that the topic of "Reincarnation and Hinduism" is a major one which deserves its own page, in much the same way that the topic of Rebirth (Buddhist) has its own page. It could contain all the material in the existing Hinduism section here, and more. We could then refer readers to the new page at the start of the Hinduism section of this article, instead of referring to Samsara, as we do now, which is about much more than Hinduism. Johnfos 20:09, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Have made this change. Johnfos 03:55, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Theory of reincarnation started in Upanishads as stated here in this article. Separating hindu part in some other page and then linking is more like cheating as re-incarnation is associated more with hinduism than any other religion. Even other religions borrowed it from hinduism. If two concepts are tightly coupled than creating separate pages almost cheats the reader by giving incomplete story.Skant 02:36, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

The page size limit for wikipedia should be raised so that an article can grow upto 5-6 pages if needed. With good internet browsers and good scrolling facilities/ page-size adjustments available in browsers, viewing 5 pages by scrolling is less difficult and much faster than moving between links of different pages (so if context needs information to be together, then we should try to keep it together and shouldn't use page-size as an excuse to make things less informative or irrelevant, this should actually be debated by wikipedia and let us see what arguments we can have!).Skant 02:36, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

POV

I have added the POV because of a strong bias in the structure and tone of this article. The scientific research section is my primary concern, however the rest of the article has a biased tone as well. Take this for example;

"Some scientists and skeptics, such as Paul Edwards, have analyzed many of these accounts. In every case they apparently found that further research into the individuals involved provides sufficient background to weaken the conclusion that these cases are credible examples of reincarnation. Philosophers like Robert Almeder, having analyzed the criticisms of Edwards and others, say that the gist of these arguments can be summarized as "we all know it can't possibly be real, so therefore it isn't real" - an argument from lack of imagination."

The structure alone points a a reincarnation bias. By including both arguements for and against the existance of reincarnation in the same section the article seems to be presenting a viewpoint then promptly shooting it down.

Another area of concern is the "Contemporary movements and thinkers" section. The majority of groups listed in this section are religous. By catagorizing them as "Contemporary movements and thinkers" the article seems to give them some sort of legitamacy in a encyclopedic or scientific context. Religions are by definition based on faith. Therefor they cannot be used to provide scientific support or critisizem for any topic. If this section was named "Religious view of reincarnation" it would be far more neutral. As it stands it is unacceptable and when I have a bit more time I will change it. There are many other problems similer to this and I suggest that a total restructering be done, which I would be happy to help with. Foolishben 01:54, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

From my perspective the title Contemporary movements and thinkers is general enough to cover the information given and wouldn't agree that the title in itself constitutes a strong bias. The scientific section is seperated below under a different header. Not all viewpoints in the Contemporary section are necessarily religous - unless anything concerning reincarnation is to be classified in that way. What do others think? It could do with a tidy-up maybe to remove any POV remarks? Regards, Gouranga(UK) 12:30, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Gouranga, Thanks for shifting the NPOV tag. I agree with what you have said, although I have suggested a new section heading: "Contemporary perspectives". And I would also like to see a new sub-section relating to "Reincarnation in popular western culture", eg., films, novels, songs, which could help to reduce the perceived religiosity of the article as a whole. I have also reduced the length of the Hinduism and Buddhist sections slightly. And, yes, the tidy-up you mention is a good idea. Johnfos 06:57, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

The paragraph begining 'Some scientists and skeptics, such as Paul Edwards...' is still very biased. Edwards being described as 'skeptic' while Robert Almeder is described as 'Philosopher' not 'Supporter' shows a degree of bias. Also, Almeders statment describing an 'argument from lack of imagination' is in no way a valid argument against Edwards views (See article on the Flying Spaghetti Monster for an example). Adding fallicies such as this undermine the reliability of this section.Aequitas1234 16:45, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Have removed the implication that Paul Edwards is a skeptic, but would make the general comment that it's actually quite difficult to do justice to everyone's views in such a small section, which is why the main Reincarnation research article is referred to. Johnfos 20:36, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

This last comment by Johnfos is typical of the vast hogwash that characterizes the article itself. There is NO credible attempt to present a balanced view of reincarnation. No one has suggested that the article should do justice to everyone's views -- this is a "straw man" -- a bogus goal mentioned for the sole purpose of refuting it. What is essential for this article to be remotely worthy of not being removed entirely is a credible section containing views of those who hold that there does not exist adequate evidence to believe in reincarnation. There are a large number of scientists, for example, who have pointed to the absence of any credible evidence to date in favor of reincarnation, but there is no attempt to present any of these views, no less everyone's views.

I strongly recommend that this article be removed soon, unless a balanced presentation is made. And it is utterly not adequate to merely refer to the article on reincarnation research to make this article worthy of Wikipedia.Daqu 17:40, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Are you seriously suggesting the Reincarnation article be deleted? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by JuJube (talk • contribs) 19:09, 24 April 2007 (UTC).

"By including both arguements for and against the existance of reincarnation in the same section the article seems to be presenting a viewpoint then promptly shooting it down."

Uh, read just about any article that refers to skeptical, atheistic, or secular views, and you'll find that this article is no more slanted than they are. Many of those articles also have rebuttals which are almost always promtly shot down within the same section.

Johnfos, I just wonder why do you erase Swammerdam's link. It's ONLY serious scientific theory, showing that the reincarnation can be real. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.120.55.2 (talk) 19:03, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Are we going to count Hollywood stars?

Contemporary Perspectives should omit Ford and Patton, and limit itself to significant groups - or we will get the views and memories of hordes of movie stars and singers. OlavN 18:40, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Appreciate what you say, OlavN. But the Ford and Patton info seems right on the topic of reincarnation and probably needs to stay. As for Hollywood stars, there has been some agreement already that the "Popular western culture" section should be expanded into a separate article and I would see them fitting in there. -- Johnfos 23:58, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Reincarnation in popular western culture

Have made a start now on the new article Reincarnation in popular western culture and will make a few changes here to reflect this. -- Johnfos 01:06, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Reincarnation in the Vedas

The sentence which reads "The doctrine of reincarnation is absent from the Vedas..." is factually mistaken: as noted in the preceeding paragraph, it is mentioned in the Upanishads, which are actually segments of the Vedic texts.

I'm removing it for that reason. Kamandi 06 June 2007

Hello Kamandi, although Vedas as a general term is often used to denote a whole range of texts, in encyclopedic terms the Vedas and the Upanishads are viewed as seperate literatures. It would good to have a citation to back up the statement however, so I have added a tag. Regards, Gouranga(UK) 10:28, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Since Robert E Howard believed in reincarnation

Could I be him? Its a scary thought, but I never liked reading yet I'm writing books, I'm a dead ringer look a like for the guy, and his life was way too simular to mine always had a sick mom ect...always cared for her. shy,depressed,i had my bout when i was 28.......i'm 52 now.......were did my skill to write books come from......if i never read any? backs of covers for book reports......and do you come back looking the same? as if you never left. i never read anything of his or any of his friends so why is it i now write books? and have the knowledge to do so and with skill......why cant you remember past lives...at least the good things........very puzzling to say the least but how i stumbled onto this someone looked up her fav author and said the picture was me.......her mom said same thing.......freaky.....

Henry Trigg

I have put back my entry about Henry Trigg which you thought fit to delete. Why? He's an interesting character! I thought Wikipedia was supposed to welcome contributions, not be under the domination of the person who first put the article on?

Les Gillard, Penzance, Cornwall

Les, I'm sure Henry T is an interesting character, but we need notability for an encyclopedia entry (see WP:N). So I'm going to have to remove his section again. -- Johnfos 08:27, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Henry Trigg is mentioned in sites about Stevenage, Hertfordshire because of the coffin which was in the barn until the 1940s. The incident of his burial and expected return is listed in the XXI Annual volume of the Gentleman's Magazine for 1751, February, page 91. Thus there are evidential sources for Trigg's existence. As to "notability", surely the exclusion of a fact or person just because lots of people don't already know about it/them is a nonsense. On that basis, no unknown fact would be published on Wikipedia! Surely the encyclpaedia is there to inform about what is not known, or to clarify what is not fully understood. This article should welcome balance by including someone who has not notoriety like Patton and was in an ordinary position and yet had an extraordinary belief in his reincarnation. And isn't it a bit mean of you to delete him? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.175.95.201 (talk) 13:29, 5 July 2007 (UTC).

In making an encyclopedic article not all information can be included, and I would agree with Johnfos that the story of Henry Trigg is not of primary interest in this instance. See Wikipedia:Five pillars in regards to what is usually considered relevant page content on Wikipedia. Regards, Gouranga(UK) 13:53, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Why are the views of Henry Ford and General Patton more relevant than an "ordinary" person? Is this the cult of celebrity? For a balanced article you should include a non-American, non-famous person or two to demonstrate the belief in reincarnation in general life. Les Gillard

Sorry, but this page will not benefit from adding accounts of the zillions of "ordinary" people who have promised but failed to reincarnate at a certain time and place. Metallion 13:49, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Shanti Devi

One of the most interesting cases - i believe - is the case of Shanti Devi. I do not think any case has come closer to a scientific proof of reincarnation. Among other interesting facts is that Mahatma Ghandi allocated a group of researchers investigated her case. I am puzzled as to why there is nothing about her on Wikipedia, while there are hundreds if not thusands of web pages about her. Sture Lönnerstrands book [1] about the case (just added by me to the list of references) is also translated to many languages. Metallion 13:49, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

That's because nobody thought about writing it until now! Care to be the first editor? Be bold! Start the story!--Jondel 11:53, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Added information on William Butler Yeats

Yeats' theory of reincarnation as expressed in A Vision deserves note, especially since it is rather unique (not dependent on linear time). This seems congruent with certain ideas current in quantum physics (such as e.g. probable realities; that time is not linear but multiply ramified). BobMill 17:13, 17 August 2007 (UTC)BobMill

According to Swammerdam there shouldn't be any time dependence between previous and next lives. I.e. the next life can happen EARLIER in history. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.120.55.3 (talk) 06:35, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

China and Buddhist reincarnation

Not sure of this is relevant to this. But i just ran across an article that talks about the chinese govt. saying that people cant reincarnate without permission. Here's a link -- BeliefWatch: Reincarnate -- Mayuresh 12:53, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

This 'reference' is a hoax.

'One of the scientific theories of reincarnation could be found in Johann Swammerdam's book "Karma for Dummies". A pity, it has been never published, but only some it's parts [45] can be found in the net."

1. Johann Swammerdam lived in the 1600's. The "For Dummies" series started in the 1990s.

2. The only page referencing this fictitious work is the one listed. Said link is all gibberish.

3. I would am going to delete this reference if I can.

Best,

DMC —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.241.1.190 (talk) 23:33, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Wonderful.

1.Have you ever heard about people with similar names? Obviously, it's NOT Swammerdam from 17 century. 2.Yes, it's the only link I found. 3.It's the ONLY explanation made me and some of my friends understand that reincarnation can be real. It seems to be much more interesting than various idiotic reports about various people who claim that they have seen other people, who told that they remember that they lived before... Anyway you find such stories suitable for being mentioned here. 4. So I'll keep editing this page to save the link. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.120.55.3 (talk) 05:45, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

reincarnation

i think the idea has already been proved cuz in the other case we can not belive gods fgair —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.237.163.5 (talk) 18:54, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

It's not proved. There is zero evidence that it is it true or demonstratable. reincarnation is a belief, and not one shared by everyone. it perfectly complements the human desire for immortality resulting from the fear of death and mortality.

Unpublished material

By the verification guidelines, unpublished material cannot, unfortunately, be included in Wikipedia articles. The corresponding material will have to await some future publication, which no doubt it will find if of the quality the text implies. Hgilbert 20:35, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Swammerdam

As I said, I continue to keep the info and link alive. I understand, that there are the Smartest people here, who Knows Better whet people should know about the subject, and I believe that 'scientific' researches about a guy who has seen another guy who told that he remembers the previous life are more fascinating than dry logical constructions, but I don't allow to myself to erase various bullshit because someone may need it. So I don't understand how adequate person can erase the ONLY theory based on physics and mathematics. Well, actually I have an idea of what can be in his mind: "I am very smart, but I don't understand this. So it's a junk and I'll erase it". Anyway it's his right, and I don't oppose. I am just going to use my similar right to edit this page again.

Best wishes, Ratcatcher. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.120.55.7 (talk) 23:33, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Hgilbert:

Yes, you are absolutely right, I am new here. And I am not going to spend much time improving the world. But some of my friends and me are sure we should share this link with others. You can check - the guys from RIS don't even bother to seed the links to their site.

You also may be absolutely right that the link I try to save doesn't complain some rules. And I am absolutely sure that the formal view will allow to remove about a half of the links in the article. Shall we?

You also are absolutely right, I've been blocked for 3RR breach. No problem.

Well, you really seem to be a person who can be right. But the harmony is not in being right.

I won't spend time in typing why the concept of reincarnation is important to me and to some more people around me. The idea is that for long years I had no explanation how such process can take place in our world. When I found the text, I was impressed. Yes, it's not clean, it needs some efforts to understand the language... I don't care. Now I KNOW that there is logically, physically and mathematically explained reason to include reincarnation in skeptical mind. I am sure that other people who need to KNOW rather than to trust will appreciate this set of thoughts.

Mmm... Well, I allow myself to be wrong. But I am also sure that even if I let the people see the link by my mistake, there won't be any harm. Are you sure that if you won't let them see it it will be good? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.120.55.10 (talk) 01:17, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

I think you misunderstand what this whole wikipedia thing is. It is not a search for the truth. It is an encyclopedia. We are interested in verifiability, not truth. --Rocksanddirt 20:48, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Rocksanddirt: ok, should I start removing links with a lack of verifiability from this article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Efialt (talk • contribs) 20:50, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

In any case, the link to "karma for dummies" does not seem to function!

If you are concerned about the verifiability of statements in this article, you should request citations using a {{fact}} tag in the article and/or discuss them on this page with experienced users. Please realize that as a new user you may be able to learn from our experience as to how Wikipedia functions. We all hope you can make constructive edits that fit the encyclopedia's policy! Hgilbert 20:54, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Please put 4 (four) tilde's (~) after your comments with leaves your name and date.

Please read the wikipedia polity on verifiability, then look at statements in the article that need to be supported by reliable references. Then find the reliable references. What you were wanting to add appears to be an unreliable reference (the book is not published yet, some text purportedly from the book taken out of context from a website). Generally self published things like blogs, and websites are not reliable sources to be used to verify information in an article. --Rocksanddirt 20:57, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Shit, they really are down...

"things like blogs, and websites are not reliable sources to be used"

So let's remove all such links?

As far as I understood you call the link unreliable because 1. It's the only one copy of this text in the net. 2. It has no ISBN number 3. You have never heard about the author.

Yes, no?

Efialt 21:06, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

To respond: 1) it's not on the net appearantly, as I can't open the page. 2) ISBN isn't the key, publication, review, peer review of the information to be a reliable source. Fragments that can't be reviewed by anyone certainly don't count as a published book, and not all books are reliable sources anyway. From the reliable sources guideline "A reliable source is a published work regarded as trustworthy or authoritative in relation to the subject at hand. Evaluation of reliability will depend on the credibility of the author and the publication, along with consideration of the context. Reliable publications are those with an established structure for fact-checking and editorial oversight. A world-renowned mathematician may not be a reliable source about biology. Authors may be reliable outside their primary field if recognized as having expertise in a secondary area of study. In general, an article should use the most reliable and appropriate published sources to cover all majority and significant-minority published views, in line with Wikipedia:Neutral point of view."

3) I've not heard of lots of authors, that doesn't matter. --Rocksanddirt 21:16, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

OK, let's look at (2).

A reliable source is a published work regarded as trustworthy or authoritative in relation to the subject at hand

Not all the links are published works, if we mean paper. "trustworthy or authoritative" are subjectives. "credibility of the author" is subjective.

These terms suppose some people, who would trust or not. I do, you not. After all it's not a policy6 it's guideline. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Efialt (talk • contribs) 21:34, 15 October 2007 (UTC) Efialt 21:39, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

As far as WP:RS goes, I'm actually pretty easy. If something can be shown to have been actually published (not self published) I'm inclined to let it be as reference. This doesn't appear to be anything. You've got a bad link to something labeled "fragments". Please fix the link so at least others can read it, and decide if inclusion of the material will violate another encyclopedic tenent, that of Original Research.--Rocksanddirt 21:49, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

OK, thanks, I'll look what can be done.

Efialt 22:22, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Josephus/Reincarnation in Judaism

This part seems way off to me. The reference given after the quotation is simply to the full text of Book II of Josephus's The War of The Jews. Therefore it's not a reference to someone saying that's what Josephus was talking about, and the idea that he was referring to reincarnation seems to be the writer's own interpretation. Possibly that even counts as original research, I'm not sure, but it seems to be unsubstantiated by any other research. In any case, it would seem to me to be far more likely that what Josephus was getting at was the Pharisees' belief in a physical resurrection of the dead at the end of the world, as opposed to the Sudducees who did not believe in the resurrection (the Bible records that they once tried to get Jesus to side with them on this, see Matthew 22:23-33).

So, it seems to me that there isn't anything (or at least anything unambiguous) to suggest that the Pharisees believed in reincarnation in the time of Josephus, and that that part of the article ought to go. Jenesis (talk) 20:08, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

There is no reference to reincarnation in any Jewish sources until after the Talmud. The above comment is correct. I am removing that part. 96.246.48.79 (talk) 03:53, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Classical Greek Philosophy

Gouranga(UK): Please be so kind as to not summarily reverse my edits, especially not based on a false attribution of bad motives! I am a scholar and simply wish to see the facts accurately reported. If there were evidence, for example, that Socrates believed in reincarnation I would be the first to state it. Note that in the previous version, no authoritative references were supplied in the Greek philosophy section. If you disagree, may I suggest that a more appropriate response is to supply counter-evidence, not to delete all edits.

The case of Pythagoras can perhaps be conceded (but only in a short article; the issue is actually fairly complex, for we don't have any writings from Pythagoras himself, and must rely on hearsay, much of it biased).

For Socrates, any student of Greek philosophy knows that, again, we have no written works by him. I could show with dozens of scholarly citations that a belief in reincarnation is not generally attributed to Socrates. However, the burden of proof is on the one who makes the positive assertion -- in this case, the claim that Socrates did believe in reincarnation. Note that the quotation in the original article is not from Socrates himself, but from Plato, who uses Socrates as a fictional character in the dialogue, Phaedo. As I pointed out, the writer Xenophon, who wrote an actual historical biography of Socrates, does not mention reincarnation. How can you justify removing such an obviously relevant fact as that?

In the case of Plato, opinion is about evenly divided as to whether he believed in reincarnation or not. I would like to give the reader the benefit of both sides of the opinion. Previously, only one side was presented. Do you not agree that, in an encyclopedia article on reincarnation, all sides should be fairly presented?

Concerning Christianity, the popular myth that early Christianity taught reincarnation is so absurd that any serious historian would find it ridiculous.

Finally, even if it were my wish to promote some kind of general 'anti-reincarnation' view, which your brief comment seemed to falsely imply, that alone is not grounds to reverse the edits. People of all opinions are entitled to supply additional facts and points to this neutral article (that is what makes it neutral and objective). However, if you summarily negate the opinions of those you disagree with, then *that* is what makes the article biased -- would you not agree?

If you disagree with any of my edits then please say so here, and we can address each issue individually. However, my sincere wish is that you simply leave the edits as-is, on the principle of "good faith" (see top of this page). Otherwise, after much pointless discussion, and wasted time on both our parts, you will see that all my edits are factually based.

In any case, it is not polite to simply delete an entire set of edits, giving no consideration to the time and effort the other person put into placing them, checking references, etc. Practical321 (talk) 19:53, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I made a minor change to the description of the Phaedo dialogue used in this page; I omitted the word "fictitious" from the description. The Dialogues are Plato's philosophy, written in the dialectic. It is, I know, debatable how much of dialogues represent the accurate philosophy of Socrates, and what parts that of Plato. I understand the common consensus to think of it as both. With regards to Plato directly, please consider the introduction by Huntington Cairns in the Bollingen Series LXXI, Collected Dialogues:

[Plato] was poet, thinker, scientist all in one and there has been no such combination of powers displayed by anyone before or since. to understand Plato is to be educated; it is to see the nature of the world in which we live. The vitality of what he has to say is due to one factor. He took his point of departure from what is and not from what man wants. One by one he took up the great problems and if he did not solve them he left them at least in a framework in which subsequent ages could see them in their essential nature. He as been misunderstood, and adapted to points of view completely antithetical to his own; but these aberrations have always run their course, and it is by a return to Plato's insights that the thought of the West has continually renewed itself.

It should be noted that Socrates (Plato) does not effectively prove reincarnation, nor disprove it for that matter, it is presented in the Phaedo as a mystical concept, and left open for choice of the individual to believe in or not to believe in. Gerald Roark (talk) 23:37, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Relationship to Shaivism and Sri Ramakrishna

"The followers of full or partial Dvaita schools ("dualistic" schools, such as bhakti yoga), on the other hand, perform their worship with the goal of spending eternity in a loka, (spiritual world or heaven), in the blessed company of the Supreme being (i.e Krishna or Vishnu for the Vaishnavas, Shiva for the Shaivites). [9]" Note the above text: firstly, Sri Ramakrishna is not a Dvaitan, I have Gospel of Ramakrishna and I would like to know which page this was taken from...Sri Ramakrishna is an Advaitan but not pure Advaitan, he relates to the real existence of God/dess(Kali for him) but he does follow the ideal of becoming one with pure Brahman... Secondly: The majority of Shaivites do not believe in Dualism, they practice a form of Advaita(Isvaravada)- monistic theism..Thus their supreme loka is Parashiva/Parabrahman, so thus they are not going to live with Shiva in a loka(although shiva is brahman-think about shivo'ham I am Shiva, and also all is shiva) in the sense of a heavenly plane that refers to mainly Vaishnavism..Domsta333 (talk) 05:34, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

My thought is that Ramakrishna must have been talking about the Dvaita school in this quotation, rather than saying he was a follower of it? The book has an ISBN so it should be possible to obtain a copy and check this. I understand there are both monistic and dualistic schools of Shaivism, and the quotation is refering to the dualistic one's specifically, I will address this now. Thank you for pointing it out. Regards, Gouranga(UK) (talk) 10:43, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Better Image?

Is anyone aware of a better image which could be used in the opening paragraph? I feel that a clearer, or more detailed illustration one must exist somewhere. Maybe an old painting or drawing from a book explaining the subject, or an medieval painting from Buddhism or Hinduism? Lion Sleeps 16:04, 6 March 2008 (UTC) 15:59, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Notes to the discussion about reincarnation, the Bible and Christianity

By Jan Erik Sigdell (Slovenia). Some facts contributed by the author of the book in German: Reinkarnation, Christentum und das kirchliche Dogma – "Reincarnation, Christianity and the Dogma of the Church" (Ibera, Vienna, 2001).

To die once, Hebr. 9:27 “And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment”, hence: die once – live once – no reincarnation. The Greek word here translated as “once” is hapax. Greek dictionaries tell us that the word can also mean: “once and for all”, “at once, suddenly”, “one day, eventually”. Hence, the contradiction to reincarnation is only apparent and related to a tendentious and subjectively chosen translation that fits the purpose.

John and Elias, Matth. 11:14, 17:10-13 John the Baptist is Elias (in earlier texts: Elijah). As a contradiction to this literal understanding, John 1:21 is referred to, where John the Baptist denies being Elias. His words are chosen to contradict what Jesus said! Should we believe him more than Jesus? The Christian view must be, that Jesus knew what John didn’t know. Very few consciously know their past personality and it may very well be that John wasn’t one of them. Or he may have avoided the question, telling only half the truth: “I am not Elias (now, but I once was)”. In any case, the mere fact that people asked him about this demonstrates that they took Jesus’ words literally. John the Baptist was killed. Could this have been his karma? Read 2 Kings 18:40: “And Elias said unto them, Take the prophets of Baal; let not one of them escape. And they took them: and Elias brought them down to the brook Kishon, and slew them there” [some 400 persons…]. So Elias had murdered...

The man born blind, John 9:2 A disciple asked Jesus about the possibility that the man was born blind because of what he did before he was born (one of the two alternatives in his question). This shows that the disciple believed in preexistence. Jesus doesn’t correct him in that, but instead indicates that in this individual case the blindness had nothing to do with having sinned before being born. A general conclusion cannot be drawn. Medieval theology has suggested, referring to rabbinical sources, that the man could have sinned in the mother’s womb (having had “evil thoughts” there), a suggestion too absurd to take seriously.

Two crucified malefactors, Luke 23:39-43 One of them regretted and believed in Jesus, and Jesus said to him: “To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.” He will have had his last incarnation. The other malefactor didn’t regret but mocked Jesus. He will still have had many reincarnations to come… This, furthermore, contradicts the dogma of inseparability of soul and body. If they were inseparable, his soul couldn’t go to paradise with Jesus the same day.

Discussion with Nicodemus, John 3-4 and 8 Jesus said: “Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God”. Nicodemus asked: “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?” He didn’t see that it would have to be a new mother. This quotation of Jesus is in modern text versions usually translated: “Except a man be born from above…”, and it is explained that Nicodemus would have misunderstood Jesus as saying “…be born again…” This explanation refers to the double sense of the Greek word anothen, which can mean both (and a few more things, too). But this is clearly nonsense, because they didn’t speak Greek! They spoke Aramaic! The Aramaic language has no double-sense word that fits here, but a single-sense word mille’ela = “from above” and another single-sense word tanyanut = “again, anew”. Clearly, Jesus used the latter, since that is how Nocodemus understood it and a misunderstanding is ruled out in the original language. Later, Jesus says: “The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.” This seems to make no sense. Here, the word pneuma occurs twice in the Greek text, and has first been translated as “wind” and later as “Spirit”. Pneuma means “wind” and in an indirect sense “spirit” – but also “soul”, that which makes the body alive, the “breath of life” (cf. Hebrew ruah). The latter meaning is common in religious texts. Furthermore, “sound” is here a translation of the Greek phoné, which rather means “voice”. Hence an alternative and correct translation is: “The soul goes where it listeth, and thou hearest the voice [whispering] thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born with a soul.” Now it makes sense. Jesus talks about preexistence: The soul comes from somewhere, where it was before, and goes on to somewhere else when the body dies. Of course, preexistence doesn’t necessarily mean reincarnation – but reincarnation necessarily involves preexistence…

Whom say people that I am? Luke 9:18-19 Jesus said: “’Whom say the people that I am?’ They answering said ‘John the Baptist; but some say, Elias; and others say, that one of the old prophets is risen again’.” John the Baptist would obviously not be possible, but the other alternatives indicate that some people in him saw a possible reincarnation of Elias or another old prophet.

Origen and reincarnation Origen’s relevant original texts were burnt in the 6th century. The only texts remaining to-day are the Latin translations by Rufinus and Hieronymus, the latter only in fragments. Both admit in the introduction to the translation that they have adjusted the text to fit the Dogma and omitted certain “offensive” parts. Thus, clearly, if Origen had written positively about reincarnation, they will have omitted that or changed its wording. Through burning the original texts, the Church has withdrawn for itself the grounds for proving its allegation that Origen would have contradicted reincarnation.

The anathemata against Origen In the protocols of the Council in Constantinople of 553, the condemnations of Origen were mentioned. They were not a subject discussed in the council itself, but this merely confirmed a condemnation formulated ten years earlier in a local synod in Constantinople. The Council instead dealt with the “three Chapters”, three texts by long dead bishops, now condemned as heretical. But before the Council was opened, waiting for the pope to appear, emperor Justinian presented the text from 543 and requested the bishops present to sign it. The pope didn’t come and the Council, therefore, wasn’t opened yet. A week later they gathered again, but the pope didn’t agree and still didn’t come. The emperor, therefore, declared the Council opened without the presence of the pope, clearly against the rules for a Council. Emperor Justinian wrote in his edict against Origen, in which he ordered the condemnation at the synod of 543, that, according to Origen: “spiritual entities were fallen in sin and as punishment banned into bodies… becoming imprisoned in a body a second and a third time or even still more times…” The first anathema reads: “If anyone assert the fabulous pre-existence of souls, and shall assert the monstrous restoration which follows from it: let him be anathema.” The Greek words here translated as “monstrous restoration” are teratodi apokatastasin. Apokatastasis normally refers to the restoration of God’s creation in its original holy order, which is certainly not monstrous… hence it will here refer to something else, but to what? Does it refer to the restoration of a new body for the soul? This would truly be “monstrous” to the Dogma… This may be a reference to reincarnation, without mentioning it by name. And if so, it confirms that Origen was viewed as advocating reincarnation. Since the condemnation of Origen isn’t a decision by an allegedly “infallible” Council, it has never been officially forbidden to the Christian to believe in preexistence, nor in reincarnation…

The Council in Nicaea in 325 It has been repeatedly alleged that belief in reincarnation was condemned during the Council in Nicaea in 325. No reference to that is found in protocols of the Council. However, it is known that these protocols are incomplete. Parts of them are missing. It is also known that emperor Constantine didn’t allow the Gnostic Christians to speak at the Council and that he gave their propositions and petitions to the fire without opening them. It is historically documented that most of the Gnostic Christians believed in reincarnation, but he didn’t give them the chance to present their views.

The third and fourth generation? Num. 14:18 “The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.” If this were so, it would be a horrible injustice to punish innocent children, grandchildren and so on for what an ancestor did! And what “mercy” would that be? Such an interpretation is contradicted in Deut. 24:16: “The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.” The Christian Gnostics interpreted the text in Num. 14:18 as referring to the “third and forth incarnation” of a sinner. That would be just…

Signed: Jan Erik Sigdell, Slovenia, Europe 193.77.16.252 (talk) 12:34, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm... ReluctantPhilosopher (talk) 17:09, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

In Occident: a mainly Greek idea, at the dubious origin

Pythagore. Although some believe to detect the belief in the reincarnation at the Celtic druids or other group pagan, it is mainly in the Greek world that the doctrines of the métempsycose flower. In Greek, métempsycose means "transmigration of the hearts". In these doctrines, the heart continues its evolution of existence in existence, and can be possibly incarnated in an animal or a plant. It is towards the Life front century. J.-C. which this belief appears in the Greek world. Its origin is not known with certainty. One does not find of it trace at Homère or Hésiode, it is thus not very probable that it comes from the Greek mythical past. For the Greek historian Hérodote, the belief in the métempsycose would be of origin égyptienne^[2]. It is also possible that it was inpirée by the Indian hindouism. The contacts between Greece and India however were complicated a long time by the fact that Perse, enemy hereditary of the Greeks, was between two civilizations (it is mainly with the conquests of Alexandre the Large one that the Greek world and the Indian world were in constant contact). Among Greeks, the orphism and the pythagorism will constitute the stones of sitted of the doctrines of the métempsycose. It will influence then poets like Pindare and of the philosophers like Plato. One finds discussions direct of the reincarnation or allusions to this one in Phédon, Ménon, the Banquet, and particularly in the er myth. In the Greek thought, the reincarnation is primarily regarded as a process of purification allowing the rise to be it matter towards the divine one (towards the Platonic Ideas, in particular).

• 1^[3] "They are still the Egyptians who, the first, said that the human heart is immortal and that at the moment when the body perishes, it comes to be placed in another alive being which is born then; that, when it lived in turn all the terrestrial species, watery and air, then it penetrates again in the body of one man at the moment when he is born, after a three thousand years migration." - Hérodote, Investigation, II, 123.

Decomposition

is any theory exist that connect Reincarnation to Decomposition? --alone (talk) 13:43, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't think in any direct way. Hinduism says that the Atman or soul is permanent whereas the body is Prakrti or perishable matter and subject to constant change. I believe Buddhism has a similar distinction between causal and non causal things -- Q Chris (talk) 15:09, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Sagan

skeptics, such as Dr Carl Sagan, see the need for more reincarnation research [citation needed]

I don't think that Sagan said that there was a "need". IIRC he implied that it was worth pursuing, not because he believed it, but because it's interesting —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.186.182.179 (talk) 03:33, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Intro sentence on research

"Some researchers, such as Professor Ian Stevenson, have explored the issue of reincarnation and published evidence of children's memories of earlier lives. Skeptics are critical of this work and say that more reincarnation research is needed."

While this sentence is balanced, it does not reflect the article. That is what the introduction is supposed to do. The article conveys the situation fairly, and the situation is that there is convincing research proving that there is something to the idea, and no one has a convincing way to refute these ideas. The introduction should try to encapsulate that summary. Mitsube (talk) 07:12, 13 October 2008 (UTC)