Talk:Popolopen

Roe Pond

I ran into a bit of a snag while trying to reference the recent additions on the dam and gristmill. According to both the USGS topo map and the NYNJTC trail map, "Hell Hole" refers to the part of the gorge, roughly speaking, west of a north-south line tangent to the western point of Brooks Lake. Downstream of Hell Hole is Roe Pond, formed by the dam (built 1901); the foundations for the old bridge and the grist mill (built 1799, predating the present dam) are further downstream, then comes the 9W bridge. On the other hand, Myles refers to the old bridge as the "Hell Hole Bridge" and cites contemporary documents referring to it as a "bridge over Hell Hole", suggesting that the "Hell Hole" name applies further down the gorge of the creek, say, to 9W. Either way, it seems inaccurate to describe the dam as "upstream of Hell Hole". Further thoughts?

Seems like you're looking at the right map, but you just have the flow of the water turned around. Popolopen creek flows to the Hudson, not from it. So Roe Pond is upstream from there. The pond flows over the dam and down into Hell Hole. The footings of the old bridge (there's nothing left of the bridge itself) are visible on either side of Hell Hole.

So it goes Lake Popolopen->Popolopen Creek->Roe Pond->dam->Hell Hole & old bridge->Route 9W bridge->Hudson River. Lake Popolopen->Popolopen Creek->dam->Hell Hole & old bridge->Route 9W bridge->Roe Pond->Hudson River [struck and corrected; see below]

Hope that clears things up. Kafziel ^{Complaint Department} 01:50, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Um, right, but the maps I mentioned have the "Hell Hole" label in the part of the gorge west (upstream) of Roe Pond. IOW, the mapmakers seem to consider "Hell Hole" to extend upstream as far as, say, a point south of Popolopen Torne. Choess (talk) 03:13, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm looking at the PIPC topo map, and Hell Hole is marked with an X. It's a pretty specific spot.

I think I see the problem. I wasn't familiar with the term "Roe Pond", and I think what they're calling Roe Pond is just the mouth of Popolopen Creek. It's semi-contained (a causeway for train tracks creates a partial barrier between it and the Hudson). I guess you could kind of call it a pond. To confuse matters further, Google Maps seems to have it mixed up with Hessian Lake. The USGS map does give a sprawling label of "Hell Hole" to a good portion of the gorge; again, the PIPC map is much more specific.

At any rate, the pond in Popolopen that the article is talking about (I guess it's actually unnamed) is a different spot, well upstream from the Hudson and much, much, much smaller than Roe Pond. It doesn't even register on most maps. Kafziel ^{Complaint Department} 04:38, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

OK, now we're further into the cartographic woods. Let me back up and lay out my sources.

• USGS topo (see [1])
• NYNJTC map, "Harriman Bear Mtn. Trails", Map 4. (2005 edition).
• William J. Myles, Harriman Trails: A Guide and History
• William Thompson Howell, The Hudson Highlands

Both maps show a label for "Hell Hole" in the upper part of the gorge, west of 74°. Only the USGS map labels "Roe Pond". If you look closely at the USGS map, you can see the dam across the Popolopen that defines the lower extent of Roe Pond (which is relatively small, and does not extend down to the mouth); Myles says "The little lake behind the [1901] dam is Roe Pond." From the discussion of the Hell Hole bridge above and the contemporary articles, it's clear that the term Hell Hole has been and is used to describe the lower reaches of Popolopen below the dam. On the other hand, Howell makes two significant mentions of Hell Hole. On a trip "down the western side of the hill [Bear Mountain]," he came to Hell Hole "down under the Torne," and elsewhere he speaks of looking "down in Hell Hole" while riding the old Forest of Dean Mine Railroad, which ended at the plateau west of and above Brooks Lake. So my inclination at present is to say that "Hell Hole" refers to the entire Popolopen Gorge from the Torne down to about the 9W bridge. What is the PIPC map you refer to? I didn't realize the Park Commission published its own maps. Choess (talk) 16:42, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, I guess that little pond above the dam (the dam visible in this photo) is Roe Pond. That does make a lot more sense, since the train causeway down at the mouth really doesn't keep the Hudson out very well. Still, even calling it a small lake is a bit of a stretch; if you're not careful while fishing, you can accidentally cast your line across to the opposite bank.

As far as Hell Hole goes, the names and the topography may have changed over the last century, so I can't really comment on what Howell wrote. I'm sure it's changed at least a little, since there's an intake for West Point's water system a little way upstream. But if you've hiked up from the pond (which I assume you have), you know there's nothing hellish about it. It's a tiny, meandering stream with no other waterfalls or even significant pools. Below the dam, however... not so peaceful.

I'm not sure where (or when) the PIPC map I have is from. My father has worked at Harriman State Park for years and I guess it just found its way to me. I can't find an online version to link to. I don't have my trail conference map here, but if I recall correctly Hell Hole is marked with an "X" on that one as well. Kafziel ^{Complaint Department} 18:14, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Sorry for the long delay. The RfA has kinda thrown a spanner in the works. I've seen the mouth plenty of times, of course, but I've only been up the gorge once, on the north side (Timp-Torne/1777 West/1779 Trail, blue blazes). From the NYNJTC map, I'm still inclined to think "Hell Hole" includes some of the upper reaches between Torne and Bear Mountain, but I concede your point that it's not particularly hellish; my vague recollection is of a small stream tumbling through boulders. I think the best thing to do is fudge wildly. I'll try to rewrite and cite, and I think I can come up with something acceptable. Choess (talk) 20:34, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

There's a Roe Pond in the middle of Highland Falls and another near Bear Mountain. There's an outlet pipe at the bottom of the dam about two feet across, and water won't accumulate behind the dam unless the creek is really flowing, usually after heavy rain or snow melt. Edit: the one near Bear Mountain is labeled Roe Pond on Tele Atlas, but other references have it as Hessian Lake.Disputantum (talk) 17 September 2008

My electrician was over today, and he said that Hell Hole is the pool just below the old bridge. His father and uncle used to dive off the bridge into the pool. The state removed the bridge to prevent kids from doing that. Also, he's never heard that pond behind the dam is called Roe Pond or anything else. Disputantum (talk) 21:57, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree with him on both counts. If only we had some better sources. Kafziel ^{Complaint Department} 21:58, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

United States Board on Geographical Names

is considered by many (for sound reasons) to be the definitive last word. (Even better than anonymous electrician.)

It lists Hell Hole and refers one, of course, to the label on USGS maps.

I'll fix description based on this information.

(Also note this from Geological Society of America:"

"Hell Hole fault.—Hell Hole is the precipitous gorge of Popolopen Creek where it crosses the Storm King granite ridge between Bear Mountain and The Torne. ..." (See interesting full text: [[2]] )

Probably some geology from above item can be incorporated.

Also, BGN cites Popolopen Bridge. There are good online sources for basic info on this structure, and will add bit on this.

Here are the three sites in Orange County bearing name "Popolopen" according to feds: [[3]]

Interestingly, Popolopen Gorge isn't on list, but I won't dispute as alternate name for "Helll Hole."

Using this database, there are two places called "Roe Pond" quite near each other in this vicinity. This is in accord with Disputantum's comment above.

See this and click on maps (I prefer acme mapper link to USGS Survey sheets) [[4]]

Calamitybrook (talk) 17:18, 21 January 2010 (UTC) Calamitybrook (talk) 17:07, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Good points all around, and good to have that new link. I did add a few sources to show we're not using original research about local usage; there are plenty of reliable sources supporting the concept of Hell Hole as a site within the gorge. It's not just the yokels. Kafziel ^{Complaint Department} 05:11, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Made some changes. Conservative, in terms of existing material, and based mostly on various new sourcing.

Hope they aren't controversial. Might make a few more, particularly based on interesting new geology source for Hell Hole. Think there may be a little more there that can be culled.

This source may also suggest independent article on Storm King granite, though it's a bit tough.

Calamitybrook (talk) 00:54, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Want to suggest that the drowning in Popolopen Creek be eliminated. Article refers to 200+ years of history. Why is this particular drowning in creek notable, other than fact that local newspaper covered it?

Base-jumper is also similarly doubtful for inclusion.

Are there sources for kayaking the creek? Why is this significant?

Calamitybrook (talk) 00:13, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

The article isn't just about the history; it's about everything. If the information is sourced, it can (some would say should) be included. In the case of the death, I'd say it's significant because it brought a lot of attention from law enforcement and changed the use of the gorge. But aside from that, events don't have to be significant to be included in articles. Policy states that they only need to be significant to merit their own articles; content within each article just needs to be neutral and verifiable with reliable sources. Hence the kayaking and such (although I do agree we need sources for that stuff). Kafziel ^{Complaint Department} 00:26, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Well, perhaps you're right. I certainly won't insist otherwise.

How did the drowning "change the use of the gorge?" Sourcing?? In my experience, the PIPC cops rarely or never leave their cars.

Was this incident unique? To me, it seems utterly random, though slightly interesting.

Can it fit into some larger context, so that it might be more illuminating?

Might we also include a list of traffic accidents on Popolopen Bridge? There must be hundreds, or even thousands. Any fatalities??

"Policy states" is tiresome approach. Better to discuss topic on its merits, in the actual context of article?

Calamitybrook (talk) 00:36, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

"Policy states" may be tiresome, but in this case it's true. Believe me - I'm not one to insist every inane detail be included in our articles; I like keeping a more conservative encyclopedic tone, but the counter-argument to that is that Wikipedia's strong point (over Britannica, for instance) is that we do include all the inane details. And I can see their point. The community in general supports the inclusion of stuff like this, which is why they limited the notability standards to articles and not article content. Which is also the reason that the article on Optimus Prime is longer than the article on George Washington.

Anyway, the changes the drowning brought about are already sourced; law enforcement stepped up patrols, preventing its use for swimming. (The larger context, really, is that Hell Hole is the series of swimming holes in the gorge, and people have used it as such for a long time.) I would imagine that ban also extends to kayaking, but again we need a source for all that kayaking business. I'm at work at the moment, but I'll see if I can find anything online. If there have been traffic fatalities on the bridge and we have reliable sources for the information, there's nothing keeping anyone from including them. Whether that's good or bad... I can't say. Kafziel ^{Complaint Department} 00:53, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

• From a quick google search of "popolopen+kayak", it actually looks like Popolopen is a reasonably popular kayaking spot, contrary to what our article said. Dangerous, but popular and widely recommended. Still looking around. Kafziel ^{Complaint Department} 01:03, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Yeah fine. More sourcing would be good.

Personally, I find random news items are interesting. But might make article a bit lame.

Objected to obscure news about weird traffic accident on Bear Mountain. Think this sort of thing is ultimately irrelevant to topic of Bear Mountain. For example, Wikipedia item about Manhattan ought to include latest mugging news? No.

At some point, a sense of proportion is needed.

Calamitybrook (talk) 01:17, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Certainly. That's why the NPOV policy includes an undue weight clause, so small events don't overshadow articles about much bigger topics. However, in this case, when Popolopen itself is so sparsely mentioned anywhere, coverage of that girl's death comprises a significant portion of the total coverage. To use your example, news coverage of New York City is truly vast, so any one person's story is a drop in the bucket. But muggings in general do comprise a significant portion of the news about Manhattan, which is why there's a section on crime statistics, as well as an entire article dealing with the subject at Crime in New York City. Kafziel ^{Complaint Department} 01:31, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

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